The following is an interview of Raye Dawn Porter, Kevin Garrett is doing the questioning and Steve Huddleston is also present.
Q…..Of course, you have your lawyer with you, Steve Huddleston. And you’re Raye Dawn Porter, DOB 11/19/79. This will be a video and audio interview.
I’m going to have to read your Miranda warning, more or less by policy here at the OSBI. Of course, I didn’t do that the first time because you were free to leave at any time, and you still are today. But obviously you’re wanting to talk to us, apparently, or you wouldn’t be here with your lawyer. I mean, that’s pretty much common sense there.
And I think Meeker probably read this to you back in January. Weren’t you interviewed with them one time back when the collarbone—
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..So if you watch TV, you’ve probably heard the same things a million times before, But anyway, this is one of our forms. I ‘m going to ask you to sign it. You can read it again if you want to. You can have your attorney look at it, so it’s a pretty basic thing.
My name is Kevin Garrett. You’re aware of that. I’m an agent with the OSBI, Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation.
I wish to advise you that you have an absolute right to remain silent: that anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law; that you have a right to an attorney before and have an attorney present wit you during questioning, if you so desire. If you decide to any questions, you may stop at any time that you wish
And the waiver, “I fully understand the statement advising me of my rights and I am willing to answer questions. I do not want an attorney, and I understand that I may refuse to answer questions at any time during the questioning. No promises have been made to me nor have any threats been made against me, “which obviously your attorney is here, but—
You can look over it and read it. You can read: right?
A…..Yeah, I can.
Q…..I know you’re a graduate of Meeker High School, which has to be a good thing.
A…..Yeah, I guess.
(There is a pause in the interview)
Mr. Garrett: See if Steve wants to witness it.
Respond underneath her name.
So anyway, that’s just pretty much the basic form that we use on the Miranda stuff.
Q…..You know, I probably, you know, should apologize to you for a certain degree, on the last time we had an interview. But you have to also realize that, you know, like we told you that day, we’re working for Kelsey. And the only thing I could really tell you was the information I have gained from the M.E.’s report. But as far as verbal communications on what the findings were on the autopsy, and that’s kind of what we was relating to you, that we knew it was a homicide and the blunt force abdominal trauma is what actually caused it.
And I’ve talked to the medical examiner, the pathologist, actually, who did that, Inas Yacoub – does that sound right?—I think she’s the lady we talked to who did that, and Kelsey had some really severe bleeding internally. Her intestines was—I mean, I saw photographs. Of course, I ‘m just a cop and not, you know, a doctor or anything, but, you know, you’ve got—in my opinion, it looks like it’s kind of severed.
She lost about 280 cc’s of blood. Now, to me, you know, she had a little container with about that much water is kind of what that would look like. I couldn’t tell you what the cc’s are in little infant’s body.
Mr. Garrett: Do you know, Steve?
Mr. Huddleston: No.
Q….. (By Mr. Garrett) I mean, I don’t know. But it was a lot of blood, probably, for somebody as small as she was.
And also, something else. I think I told your mother. Did you mom tell you anthing that I told you—that I told her?
A…..She just said she had a rip somewhere.
Q…..Yeah, there was a separate injury that wasn’t caused by this one. And the M.E.’s office said that it was non-accidental, which means that the injury to the stomach, you know, area wasn’t caused by CPR or anything else other than some type of force. And a blunt force is probably a hit, a kick, you know, something that would cause a—so much jar in that little body for that to split apart, for it to start bleeding.
And then inside the between her rectum and the vagina, there’s a tear. I saw photographs of the tear, and it’s a separate incident.
A…..Wait. Is this on the outside or in the inside?
Q…..Inside. There’s bruising on the outside, there’s also bruising around the anus, but on the inside there’s also a tear. Of course, I’m going to want to ask you, you know, later on, you know, how did she—do you know of any way that she could have gotten that kind of an injury?
A…..And I went back and I’ve thought and I’ve thought, and she never said anything about anything.
So is the bruising like—you said the bruise is on the outside?
Q…..Yeah.
A…..He’s sorry.
Q…..I mean, you know, it kind of – you know, the thinking is that maybe something was inserted inside of her rectum, you know. You know, I don’t know. I mean, I wasn’t there as far as when that injury occurred. But, you know, for just a cop looking, it looks like there’s bruising, you know, above, you know, her anus. And then she has that tear inside. And it even looked to me like there was a bruise on the cheek, you know, where maybe if you were holding it open or something, you know. I’m guessing, you know, but it disturbs me. You know, I don’t like it.
You know, just thinking on how that could have occurred kind of makes me sick at my stomach and I’m sure being your daughter it makes you pretty sick, you know.
And like I told you the last time we talked to you, you know, even though Kelsey is dead, you know, the autopsy is an investigative thing that assists us through the M.E.’s office on what injuries could have occurred, you know, to her to cause the death. And I think you kept asking me when we were up here, you wanted to know why, you know, your daughter died. Do you remember that?
A…..Yeah.
Q…..You asked several times and I think you got aggravated, maybe, at us. And we might have been aggravated at you. We need you to tell us what happened because, you know, we don’t know. We weren’t there.
A…..And I wasn’t there. That’s why I want to know.
Q…..And so, anyway, I talked to Steve a little bit earlier, you know, before you came up. He kind of worked on some timeline stuff that he talked to you with, and I think probably from—you know, when you first met Mike from January, etc., up until, you the 11th of October. Well, I kind of wrote out a few questions on a few things that I’m kind of wanting to ask you.
Some of it’s going to be like history stuff, because I’m going to ask you some stuff about Kelsey that—you know, I never got a chance to meet her when she was live, you know. I was involved after she had already died, so it’s going to be helpful for you to be able to help us understand her actions, the ways she would react and those kind of things.
So I’m sure some of it will be probably pretty tough, you know. And then there’s going to be, you know, some things about, you know, when the injuries occurred. I’m going to have to try to find out if Mike was around. I think Steve had already asked you some stuff dealing with that, because, you know, it’s kind of—makes me wonder as an investigator that, you know, Kelsey apparently didn’t have any injuries, per se, at least broken bones, until after you started dating Mike.
And then we had in January the collarbone, the clavicle break, and then there’s a bunch of bruising on the butt. I think Meeker PD had talked to you about some of that. And, I mean, there was just a lot of different things. And then, of course, the ankle and then maybe the legs. I mean, I don’t think anybody for sure knows if it’s the same thing or a separate incident.
A…..Right.
Q…..So any times that Mike was around, you know, I need to know and I think you’ve kind of covered that with Steve and we’ll kind of get to that part too.
But I think probably the first question I’d like to ask you, what kind of a child was Kelsey? You know, was she a fussy girl? Was she happy most of the time? I mean, I have a little guy that’s five, and I can kind of explain how he is. But, you know, in the mornings is she happy?
A…..She was—she was always happy. She—she wasn’t a crier. She wasn’t a kid that got on people’s nerves. She was all in all a good kid. She just—she was very active. She would climb.
Q…..Was she a good climber?
A…..Oh, yeah. She was a good climber. She__
Q….. Could she actually crawl out of her bed__
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..—like a toddler bed? We’ve got the rails and stuff?
A…..Yes. She had even—at one point, it was just me and her, but she climbed from—you know, in the bathroom, I go to change clothes, come back, and she has climbed from the floor up to the counter and got in the sink.
Q…..How high is the sink off the ground? Is this at the aprtment?
A…..Uh-huh. It might have came to my waist.
Q…..Okay. And how old was Kelsey at that time?
A….. Almost two.
Q…..Okay.
A…..Somewhere in there.
Q…..So you’re saying, then, she’s happy all the time? What about when she’s tired? Does she get grumpy when she’s tired?
A…..When she was little, there would be times where she’d tell me she wanted to go to bed. Sometimes she would get cranky. Like, if she didn’t get her way for something when she was tired, then she would get—that’s when she might throw a little fit. And that’s when I would know it was time—she needed a nap.
Q…..Did she require a lot of attention? Did she demand it?
A…..When we lived with my mom, she didn’t care what Mommy did. You know, she went and done her little thing and then, you know, she’d come back and check in every now and then.
Q…..What was her little routine? Did she have certain toys she’d play with or things?
A…..I didn’t buy her a lot of toys when she was little. She loved to play on the phone.
Q…..Are you talking about just picking the phone up to talk a little bit?
A…..Yeah. She loved to play outside in the dirt. Just—and then, you know, she liked to lay down and watch TV with me. I mean, that was one of the things that just me and her did.
Q…..Are we talking about cartoons, animated shows, or just anything?
A…..Anything. I mean, she would just lay down and watch TV with me. It didn’t matter if it was her cartoons or something I wanted to watch.
Q…..How far along was Kelsey on the potty training?
A…..She’d tell me if she had to go poop. She’d most of the time tell me if she had to go to pee. Sometimes she’d have accidents.
Q….. And I was thinking you told me that on October the 11th, that Tuesday—
A…..She had an accident.
Q…..—she had an accident?
A…..She came and told me she had an accident.
Q…..And was it a pee or a poop thing?
A…..Pee. And then she pooped in the toilet sometime that day, either earlier—I think it was earlier.
Q…..Was that before noon or afternoon? Do you remember?
A…..I want to—I want to say it was afternoon but I’m—or, I mean, before noon, but I’m not really positive, because after she pooped, she asked me, she said, “Mommy, that throw up?”
And I said, “No, poop”
She said, “Oh, that’s a big one.”
And I said, “Yeah.”
Q…..So how many times a day would she pee normally? Do you know? Because if you change diaper, I mean, you kind of—
A…..Right.
Q…..—you go through a bunch of them sometimes.
A…..I don’t know. I really don’t remember how many times she’d pee.
Q…..Well, take a guess. Four or five times a day? Then times a day? Did she pee more than she pooped?
A…..Yeah. She usually pooped at least once a day. But as for peeing, I don’t know. What’s a normal routine for—
Q…..I don’t know. I thought you might know.
A…..I don’t know. I pee more than the average person these days, so I don’t know.
Q…..What about accidents on peeing or pooping? I mean, was there many times?
A…..If she would get too busy, you know, doing whatever she wanted to do, then she might have an accident. And she’d come tell me, “Mommy, I had an”—
Q…..Was that a daily thing?
A…..No, not every day.
Q…..Because she’s what, about two years and ten months, something like that?
A…..Yeah, not every day. Just if she got too busy, she would.
Q…..Did that ever affect Mike if something like that happened? Did that bother him?
A…..I do remember at one point he had asked me—I think she might have pooped her pants. And he said, “Why did she not tell me she had to poop?”
And I said, “I don’t know.”
So I don’t know if there was a reason why she wouldn’t tell him she wanted to go poop. But there was a time—I do remember at time when he asked me, he said, “Why didn’t she tell me she had to go poop?”
Q…..When did he ask this?
A…..That was when we still lived at the other house.
Q…..Okay.
A…..It was after I got her back in June.
Q…..So sometime after June?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Was Kelsey sick very much? Did she ever have any colds very often, sinus, temperature, anything like that?
A…..No. And even when she had a—before, when she was, like, really little, she was never hardly ever sick. I mean, I just found an old bottle of antibiotic when we were moving and she didn’t use all of it.
Q…..Uh-huh.
A…..And then—
Q…..What about in October? Was she sick any? And I’m talking about where she needed medication for that maybe she had a fever or anything like that. Do you recall any?
A…..I don’t remember. I don’t know.
Q….. But nothing comes to your attention that maybe she was?
A…..No.
Q…..It’s only 11 days.
A…..Oh, this October. I’m sorry. I was going a year back.
Q…..No, I’m thinking about this October.
A…..Here, I don’t know if it was in October, but it might have been in September, she—I had taken her to the doctor because they said—because she was throwing up. And I stayed up with her all that night, and I took her to the doctor that morning.
And then there was another time we were at—was that September? –I’m going to have to go back. I’m not sure if it was in September. At one point, I took her to the doctor, to see Dr. Koons, because she had—she was throwing up. And I’d even taken her to my sister Janet’s house. She was having a garage sale, and she had thrown up that day. And I wanted to take her to the doctor then, and Mike said, “We need to just wait and see if she gets better.”
And I said, “If she’s sick, I need to take her to the doctor.” And I eventually took her after staying up with her that whole night. And they said she had strep, but they didn’t do the strep test or anything. They gave her a shot and they gave her some stuff to put on her wrist, but she wouldn’t keep anything down.
Q…..And when was that?
A…..I want to say it was in September, but I’m not positive.
Q…..But for, say, like two weeks before the 11th there, was she on any medication or anything?
A…..I gave her—two nights before Tuesday, she seemed to have kind of a runny nose, and so I gave her some, oh, cold and cough or something like that.
Q…..Did you check her temp or anything?
A…..I kind of touched her, but I didn’t get the thermometer.
Q….How would you normally check her temperature?
A…..I would stick in under her arm.
Q….. The thermometer?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..With the glass type?
A…..No, with the digital.
Q…..With the digital? Okay.
A…..And we did—you know, I had done it enough to where if she saw the thermometer, she did it herself.
Q…..Did Mike ever check her temperature or anything?
A…..I’m sure he did.
Q…..Would he do it the same way you would do it, under the arm?
A…..As far as I know. He did it in her mouth a couple of times.
Q…..What about rectally?
A…..Not that I know of.
Q…..No rectal. I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know, but I don’t think the digital jobs are for that anyway. Aren’t they for—
A…..I don’t know. That never even crossed my mind to try that.
Q. Okay. But as far as you know, he’s never done that?
A…..No, not to my knowledge.
Q…..It may not seem like an important question, but I think it’s something to kind of cover. So you’re saying then, that she had strep throat probably sometime in September. But there will be medical records to give us the exact date on when you took her to the doctor. And would that be Dr. Koons? Is that going to be the family physician?
A…..That’s where I took her, yeah.
Q…..Okay. But she did get some Tylenol a couple days before the 11th. Let’s see. The 11th was a Tuesday, so you’re saying Saturday or Sunday, maybe? Sunday?
A…..I take that back. It was the night before.
Q…..The night before? Okay. Because she died on a Tuesday, so you’re saying on Monday, the 10th?
A…..I think so, because me and Mom talked about me giving her that medicine.
Q…..And that’s because she had a runny nose?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Did she have allergy problems or anything?
A…..All her allergy report said was some kind of grass, Johnson grass, and then it said cigarette smoke, but is said it throughout the report. But it didn’t say that’s what she was allergic do. But it did say Johnson grass.
Q…..Do you or Mike smoke?
A…..(The witness shook her head.)
Q…..What frustrated you with Kelsey? What would Kelsey do that would frustrate you?
A…..What would frustrate me? That she wouldn’t eat like she used to. Like, she would hold her food in her mouth, and I just didn’t understand that.
Q…..Was she chewing it?
A…..She would chew it and then stick it and just hold it in her mouth. And there would be times where I’d say, “Kelsey, did you swallow your food?” And then she would just kind of look at me and I’d say, “Let me see, “ and she would open. And I would say, “Kelsey, swallow that.” I mean, it was to the point were you know it had to be nasty.
Q…..Uh-huh.
A…..But she did that. That’s the main thing.
Q…..Would you discipline her for something like that?
A…..She would just have to sit at the table until she swallowed.
Q…..Okay. But you wouldn’t spank her—
A…..No.
Q…..—or anything like that? No time-out?
A…..No
Q…..Okay.
A…..I might have put her in time-out for now swallowing before. I believe I did.
Q…..So what else would she do that might—would upset you?
A…..I wouldn’t say it really upset me. It just kind of confused me, I guess, when, like—if Mike was, you know, say, like, putting her into the bath or helping her change her clothes, sometimes, you know, she would let us know she didn’t like it. I was like, “Kelsey, what is wrong with you?” So then I would just take her.
Q…..She wouldn’t want to take a bath?
A…..Like, he would hold her up—like, one night he held her up and, you know, sometimes she’d just kick to where she kicked her pants off. And then one specific night, she just—she didn’t like it. I mean, she—I was right there sitting on the bed, and the bathroom is right there. So I just said, “Kelsey, what is wrong with you?”
Q…..And Mike was going to give her a bath?
A…..Her and Whitney.
Q…..Okay. So he normally gave them baths?
A…..We kind of—sometimes I would and sometimes he would. I mean, I mainly—you know, I wanted to do it, and he wanted to do it. I didn’t see what the big deal was, but—
Q…..Okay. But that would frustrate you if she didn’t want to take a bath?
A…..Well, no, it wasn’t that she didn’t want to take a bath. It was that, you know she would throw a fit when he was trying to help her.
And I didn’t understand why she was—
Q…..Okay. So that would frustrate you.
A…..Yeah.
Q…..Did that frustrate Mike?
A…..He would kind of tell me, he was, like, “You need to do something with your daughter,” you know, or—
Q…..It wasn’t “our daughter”? It was “your daughter”?
A…..Sometimes it was “your daughter” when he got aggravated with her. And sometimes it was, like—I’d come in there and I’d hear her, and I’d say, “What is wrong?”
And he’d say, “Well, she just started wigging out. Go see what’s wrong.” And she wouldn’t answer me.
Q…..What exactly did he mean by “wigging out”?
A…..Like—kind of like a cry, but she wouldn’t—I never did really see any tears. So the way I looked at is was she was trying to get my attention, what the way I looked at it.
Q…..Kind of being fussy?
A…..Yeah. Like my mom has always said, sometimes she didn’t want anybody messing with her but me, you know. That’s how she was.
Q…..So the two most things that would frustrate you would be like if she would chew her food but not swallow it and then if during the bathing time she would throw one of those little fits or something.
A…..Yeah, you know, anytime she just—if I didn’t understand what was wrong with her and she wouldn’t tell, I didn’t understand what was wrong.
Q…..Could she tell you what was wrong?
A…..I mean, I think so.
Q…..Because I think later on I’m going to ask you some questions about that as far as how far along was she –could she make sentences and could she communicate pretty well?
A…..She’s talked as long as I can remember. I mean, I think that’s why I—that’s why I get so mad now and upset, is because I thought she would have told me or she would have told my mom that something was wrong.
Q…..Told you what? What do you mean? Tell you what?
A…..Like if the reason we’re going through all this problem or whatever happened to Kelsey, if something was going on, why wouldn’t she have told me?
Q…..So you’re saying, then, if Mike was abusive to her or doing something bad to her, she would tell you? Is that what you mean?
A…..Yeah. That’s what I was thinking. Wouldn’t she have told me?
Q…..And she never did apparently?
A…..She never said anything.
Q…..Okay. So that’s the main two things that would frustrate you on dealing with Kelsey? Anything else?
A…..I’m thinking that’s it.
Q…..What about not picking up her room or throwing toys around and stuff? Did that ever irritate you any, frustrate you?
A…..No, because, like, if I told her to pick up her toys, she just—she did it. Like I said, she just—she was a good kid.
Q……What about with Mike? What would frustrate Michael? What would Kelsey do that would get him upset?
A…..When he would tell her to do something—like when he would tell her to do something an she would look at me, he didn’t like that.
Q…..And when did this start?
A…..It was after we were married I think.
Q…..And that was, what, April 20 something?
A…..It was April 18th, but it was after that, because he didn’t—a lot of this didn’t, like, happen until, you know, like, after she came back in June. I mean, it was—she kind of looked at me like, “Do I have to?”
Q…..And that would frustrate him?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Now, would he get upset? I mean, would he bust her or something for her discipline her? Did her discipline her?
A…..All he did was put her in time-out.
Q…..He never—
A…..I’ve never seen him lay a finger on her.
Q…..Have you ever seen him bust Michael Gage, his son, or Whitney?
A…..Yes.
Q…..But he would bust his son or his daughter too?
A…..He didn’t spank Whitney very often.
Q…..Was there a reason why he wouldn’t spank Kelsey? Did you tell him not to specifically—
A…..No, I never told him to.
Q…..—or did he just on his own wouldn’t go to that measure to discipline?
A…..He just didn’t ever do it, not that I ever saw.
Q…..Did you find that odd or—
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Did you guys ever have talks about that? I mean, it would be okay for him to bust Kelsey if she did something bad? I mean, as parents, did you –all ever have that kind of a conversation?
A…..I know he told me that he just wasn’t going to go there.
Q…..Did he say why?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..But he just made the comment that he wasn’t going to go there as far as to discipline your daughter?
A…..Yeah, because people have asked, like DHS and (inaudible) and all that, and he told me, he said, “I’m just not going there.
Q…..Did Michael treat Kelsey any differently than Whitney or Michael Gage?
A…..He says he treated them all three the same. And he was stricter with Bubby that he was with Whitney.
Q…..And Bubby is Michael Gage?
A…..Uh-huh. He tried to pay the same amount of attention to Kelsey, I guess you could say. I’m trying to think.
Q…..Now, what would make him get onto Michael Gage?
A…..Bubby is just ornery.
Q…..Well, I need to know. I mean, how do you get a busting around the house? What would a little two-year-old boy that would make his 250-pound, six-foot-something dad bust him? I mean—
A…..At one—you know—you know, if he pushed Kelsey or hit Kelsey, he got in trouble for that.
Q…..So if Mike was to bust him for that, was it like one swat? Are we talking about on the hand? on the leg? on the butt? Upside the head? I mean what—
A…..On the butt.
Q…..It would be a butt. Open hand? Did he use a paddle? A belt? Clothesline? Clothes hanger?
A…..He just used—
Q…..A ball bat? Golf club? Anything like that?
A…..Not that I saw.
Q…..Would he—would he typically hit him once or twice, three times? I mean—
A…..Two or three times.
Q…..Was he upset? I mean, was it like he was upset while he was doing it or did he enjoy it?
A…..I don’t know. I mean, I didn’t—
Q…..I mean, you didn’t observe anything like that?
A…..No.
Q…..Well, I’m just thinking about my little boy. I’ve kind of gotten to the deal, he’s five, he does something, which right now it’s in school. He’s in pre-K. He’ll do something wrong. And I’ve told him, I have said, “You know, if your teacher calls us because you’re not doing whatever you’re suppose to be doing, you know, you’re going to get swatted,” you know.
But I’ve kind of gotten to the point where I just hate—I have to bust him, and it hurts me more, I think, than it does him. And I’ve even gotten where I’ll just try to have eye contact and warn him a couple of times before, you know, just to try to get that bluff in on him to where he won’t do anything that’s going to, you know, cause a problem for him.
And I was just wondering, did Mike seem like he—did it bother him to bust Michael? Or did it seem like he enjoyed it?
A…..Yeah, he told me a few times that he hated to do that. And I hated to see it.
Q…..Did you ever bust Kelsey?
A…..No. Like, what I use to do was like maybe spat her, like as she’s walking off, just kind of spat her.
Q…..Uh-huh.
A…..Nothing—
Q…..Now, keep in mind, now, I’ve talked to some of your friends and neighbors—
A…..Right.
Q…..—back at the apartment.
A…..Right.
Q…..So, you know—
A…..I understand
Q…..—they’re obviously going to give a version of what they saw.
A…..Right. And, you know, I’d kind of just spat her as she was walking off.
Q…..So you’ve never bust her?
A…..Like hard?
Q…..Well, I’m not saying how hard, but have you ever had to bust her for discipline, you know, slap her hand—
A…..Yeah, I’ve slapped her hand.
Q…..—bust her butt?
I mean, let’s face it, you know, a lot of times kids, you know, want to get into breakable stuff and you—you’ll say the no-no thing, you know, slap their hand. You know, some people think you should do the time-out thing. Some people think you should bust them. Discipline on children is pretty controversial. I mean, you said earlier that you-guys will do a time-out thing, but were there times that you’d have to bust her?
A…..I am trying to think, because I was just talking about this.
Q…..Well, it should be something to remember.
A…..Well, I was saying—I was talking about how I would just kind of spat her.
Q…..Uh-huh.
A…..I’m trying to think. I’m trying to go back to think if I spanked her when she wore diapers.
Q…..Well, she was wearing a Pull-Up the other day. I mean, a Pull-Up is a diaper, isn’t it?
A…..She wasn’t wearing a Pull-Up with me.
Q…..We’ll talk about that in a little while.
A…..Yeah, I’m thinking if I did, it was a long time ago.
Q…..Okay. So how would you punish her if she did something?
A…..I usually just sent her to time-out.
Q…..Okay. So you didn’t have to but her, then?
A…..No, I haven’t--
Q…..Or at least lately in the last month or two? I mean, she would mind you pretty well or you’d put her in the time-out? Is that what you are saying?
A…..Yes.
Q…..Okay. Did she mind Michael well?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Would she mind him?
A…..(The witness nodded her head).
Q…..Did he ever have to bust her that you’re aware of?
A…..Not that I ever saw.
Q…..Did he ever put her in the time-out?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Okay. Well, what do you do if you put a child in time-out and they do something and not mind you on that part? What would be the next phase of discipline?
A…..Say that again.
Q…..Well, say, for example, you put Kelsey in a time-out and she says, “Well, I don’t want to go to time-out.” She’s going to god what she wants to do. What do you do? I mean, how do you—what’s the next phase of punishment—
A…..I don’t know that she did that—
Q…..—or discipline? So you’re saying that if you ever put her in time-out, she would stay in time-out?
A…..Because I only put her in there for like two minutes, not very long.
Q…..Okay.
A…..Oh, and, yeah, she has—when we were at the other house, she had came out before.
Q…..And the other house, we are talking about the house in Shawnee?
A…..Uh-huh. She had—I don’t think it was when I put her in time-out when she had came out before. Me or Mike, one, you know, whichever it was, was like, “You’d better get back in there.”
Q…..And that was usually enough?
A…..Yeah. She’d go back.
Q…..Okay. What would she do to get in time-out?
A…..Sometimes for not swallowing her food. The night before, she was put in time-out, not by me—because she was sitting with me on the couch. We were watching TV and I got up to go do something. And anyways, I came back and I said, “Come her, Kelsey.”
And he was like, “She’s in time-out.”
I said, “For what?”
And he said, “When I picked her up, she started pouting.”
Q…..And this is going to be Monday?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..October the 10th?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..So, apparently, for Mike he put her in time-out because she was pouting?
A…..Uh-huh, when he picker her up, he said.
Q…..What that common for her to do if he picker her up?
A…..Sometimes. And then sometimes, she wouldn’t.
Q…..Now, as far as pouting, are we talking about a facial expression—
A…..Yeah.
Q…..—or something she would say or do physically?
A…..It was in her face.
Q…..Because that’s kind of how it is with my little guy. Sometimes he’ll show you a face or something.
A…..Kind of like she might be wanting to cry.
Q…..Was it like this, that kind of deal?
A…..Yeah, kind of like where she was kind of wanting to cry.
Q…..All right.
A…..Which, again, you know, I just thought that was because she wanted to sit with Mommy or she wondered where I went.
Q…..Does she go with you a lot?
A…..She wanted to.
Q…..What about if you were to leave, you know, and go do something? Did she ever—
A…..Yeah, she—
Q…..Was she okay staying with Mike, or did it upset her?
A…..Sometimes she’d be okay. But that was a ways back, she might be okay, kind of. But then she got to where she would throw up, like when I’d come back. I was like, “What in the world?”
And he was like, “She just looked at me and just threw up.”
Q…..This is recently?
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q…..When’s recent?
A…..From, you know, when we moved into the –into Mom’s house and then—
Q…..And when was that?
A…..—back a ways. We were in the process of moving in before we signed the papers, because Mom stayed with us a couple of nights.
Q…..Well, do you remember exactly—I’m just going to go ahead and cover that now. What were the dates—when did you live in the apartments at Meeker? Do you remember?
A…..I moved in, in August.
Cell phone rings.
Q…..I need another phone, don’t I? That’s really aggravating.
Okay. You said August of what? Do you remember?
A…..August—I don’t know what day in August. And we got married August—I mean, April 18th.
Q…..Of ’05?
A…..Uh-huh. From there to there. And I don’t know what day I moved everything out or anything like that, because it was kind of a process.
Q…..Well, do you remember how long you lived in the apartments, though, there in Meeker?
A…..From August to April.
Q…..From August to April. And we’re talking about ’04 to ’05?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..So August of ’04 to April ’05. So did you move out before you married Mike?
A…..No. I would, like—
Q…..I mean, I was thinking, which I’ve interviewed some folks at DHS, I thought they were saying maybe March you moved in with Mike. Are you sure that’s not right?
A…..No, because I had to talked to the lady at—at the apartments about moving out.
Q…..But I did check utilities over in Meeker and I didn’t bring that with me. It’s in my car, and I don’t remember the exact date that was.[/color
[color=red]So from August of ’04 to April of ’05 you’re in Meeker in the apartments.
A…..But, like, I didn’t have Kelsey most of that time, so I may not have—I wasn’t there, like, all the time.
Q…..So you might have been staying with Mike?
A…..Right.
Q…..Okay. Then when did you move in with Mike? April?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..And what was the address in Shawnee?
A…..1105 East Chandler.
Q…..1105 East Chandler?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Is that street or avenue or just Chandler?
A…..I think it’s just Chandler. I’m not for sure.
Q…..Okay. Now, when did you move into your mother’s house where you-all currently live?
A…..It was a gradual thing. It wasn’t just all in one day.
Q…..Was there a reason why you-guys were moving into Gayla’s house?
A…..We were buying it.
Q…..Uh-huh.
A…..And he just—we just kind of like gradually moved our stuff in.
Q…..So you-all did buy the house from Gayla?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..But you don’t know when?
A…..I don’t know the specific date.
Q…..October ’05? September ’05?
A…..The day we signed the papers was, I believe—I believe the Wednesday before she died.
Q…..So it was just recent then?
A…..Yeah. We signed the papers.
Q…..Did you move in before you actually bought it?
A…..Yeah. We were gradually moving in, yeah. Mom didn’t care.
Q…..So would it be safe to say, then, probably sometime in September?
A…..Probably the very end of it, yeah.
Q…..Probably the end of September.
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..And you said just a gradual move in?
A…..Uh-huh?
Q…..Why are you-guys leaving the house in Shawnee? Not big enough? Was it too ugly or this was a good opportunity?
A…..It wasn’t big enough. But to my understanding, he had renters coming in, and I found out that was not the case.
Q…..What do you mean by that?
A…..I went by there—when was it? – me and my sister went by there one day since Kelsey’s passed away, and it’s been foreclosed on.
Q…..Okay.
A…..I had no idea.
Q…..Did the grandparents ever punish Kelsey that you’re aware of? Did your mother ever punish her? Did she do time-outs?
A…..She did time-outs. I know whenever—I know when she had her in May, she made her sit on the couch, because I called at one point and she said she was in time-out.
Q…..And what did she do to deserve time-out at Gayla’s house?
A…..I don’t remember what she did.
Q…..What about the Briggses? Let’s see. There was Kathie and Royce, Lance’s—your ex-husband, her father, was Lance Briggs’ parents. Kathie and Royce, did they ever—
A…..I have no idea.
Q…..—discipline her or anything?
A…..I have no idea.
Q…..Okay. How often did you drink or do drugs or anything? Do you—
A…..I have not done drugs since before Kelsey. Whenever I was going through the battle with Kelsey, I had drank, you, more than usual.
Q…..Okay.
A…..Because—I mean, I know—I understand there’s no excuse for it, but—
Q…..I’m not pointing fingers. I’m just needing to gather all the facts.
A…..Right.
Q…..It’s just a question that I needed to ask.
A…..Whenever I was going through all that, yeah.
Q…..Going through all of what?
A…..When they came and taken Kelsey away and I was trying my hardest to get her back and going through the classes.
Q…..We’re talking about Kathie and DHS when they first took her in January?
A…..Right.
Q…..Okay. In case you haven’t noticed, now, when I ask you something, you know, I usually would want to know the time and the date, if anything occurred if you can think of it. I’m kind of a nosy person. Have you noticed that yet?
A…..That’s okay.
Q…..And if I ask you something, you, I really try to get something tied down to a certain time, a certain place, anybody else that might have witnessed something. So if you can kind of think of that—because I’m going to ask you. If you don’t say it, I’m probably going to have to ask you.
A…..Okay.
Q…..So you—you—you started drinking, then, more than usual in January.
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Okay. What was usual? Are we talking about a case a week? A case an night? A case a month? A beer a day? A beer a night? I mean, give me some numbers.
A…..Yeah, like, sometimes I would have one when I would come home from work and out of school.
Q…..And you said there’s been no drugs since Kelsey was born?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..What kind of drugs are you talking about? Cocaine? LSD? Marijuana? Meth? I mean—
A…..Yeah.
Q…..Yeah, what?
A…..I had done some crank when I was married to Kelsey’s dad.
Q…..Which is Lance?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Okay. Did Lance do crank too?
A…..(The witness nodded her head).
Q…..Okay. But since you’ve had Kelsey, thought, you’re saying you haven’t touched any drugs at all?
A…..Right.
Q…..Did you ever smoke any marijuana back in that time when you was in high school and stuff?
A…..Not very often. I didn’t like it.
Q…..Okay. The question was, have you ever smoked any marijuana when you were in high school?
A…..Oh, yeah, I have.
Q…..Okay. Yeah, but I didn’t—you know what I’m saying—
A…..That’s okay.
Q…..—the question.
What about since you’ve been married to Mike? Does Mike use any crank or anthing?
A…..Not that I know of.
Q…..Any marijuana? What about alcohol use?
A…..He drinks every now and then, yeah.
Q…..Every now and then? Is that like every other day? Only special occasions? Socially? Help me out there. A big ball game on, he likes drinking beer? Friday night? Saturday night? Monday night? Special night of the week, maybe, he might drink more beer than usual?
A…..No. We would go out or something, you know.
Q…..Okay. Would he drink one beer? Two beers? Would he get drunk? I mean, what was his routine if he was to drink?
A…..It varied. Like, sometimes, you know, he would just have one. And sometimes he would have, you know, more than one.
Q…..Did he ever get intoxicated?
A…..When we would go out.
Q…..Where would we go out at? Where do we go when we go out?
A…..Sometimes we would go, you know, to little clubs or places in Shawnee.
Q…..Uh-huh.
A…..When we first started dating, we went to City Walk.
Q…..How many beers would it take Mike before he got intoxicated?
A…..Quite a few.
Q…..What’s a few? A 12-pack? A 6-pack? A case?
A…..Maybe a little more than a 12-pack.
Q…..Okay. So around a 12-pack or so, he’s intoxicated?
A…..Maybe.
Q…..Okay. If he—if Mike’s a drunk guy, is he a happy drunk? Is he mean? Verbal abusive? What kind of a person is he if he gets intoxicated?
A…..He wasn’t mean.
Q…..Had he ever been mean to you? Since you mentioned that. As long as you’ve dated him, which I think you told me the other day was October, November of ’04, to current, he’s never been physically abusive to you?
A…..The only thing he ever did was throw a set of keys at me.
Q…..Did he hit you with them?
A…..Yeah.
Q…..When was this?
A…..It was in the summer or somewhere in there.
Q…..The summer of this year?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..What kind of an argument deserves to get hit upside of the head with a set of keys?
A…..I’ve tried to think of that myself.
Q…..Was it like the little, key, or are we talking about 50 keys? Ten keys? A key ring from work? I mean, I’ve seen key rings that if they hit you it would knock you out.
A…..Yeah, I don’t remember what we argued about. It wasn’t a huge set of keys. It was just car keys.
Q…..Did it hurt?
A…..It stung a little bit.
Q…..Really? Was you happy? Did that improve your relationship with your husband at that point, or were you upset?
A…..Yeah, I called my mom.
Q…..What did he hit you for?
A…..I’m trying—I don’t remember what we were arguing about.
Q…..And when was that?
A…..It wasn’t very long ago, but we still lived in the house in Shawnee.
Q…..So we’re talking about, what, September, maybe?
A…..I don’t know.
Q…..Since Kelsey’s legs were broken? That was April. Has it been since then?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Okay.
A…..It wasn’t very long ago, because I called Mom.
Q…..So what was it that you said or did that would upset Mike enough to throw a set of keys at you and hit you in the head?
A…..Oh, I do remember. Kelsey had gotten soap in her, eyes, and she had rubbed it to where it was real red.
Q…..Uh-huh.
A…..And something made me upset. It was—and I smarted off and told him it was his fault she got soap in her eyes in the first place, and he chunked them at me.
Q…..How many keys—was this like his personal car set keys?
A…..(The witness shook her head.)
Q…..So how many keys was on his key ring?
A…..Maybe two. And then—
Q…..Remote control, maybe?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Okay. Now, since you mentioned about the eye, did that ever get mentioned to DHS?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Okay.
A…..I had called—I had called—let’s see. Jean came and she seen it, CHBS.
Q…..And that’s Mrs. Bonner, right? Jean Bonner?
A…..Uh-huh. And I also called Yolanda, and Yolanda came and seen her.
Q…..Did that upset Mike that you called her?
A…..He didn’t act like it.
Q…..He didn’t act like it? Okay. So other than that time there—he was sober, I’m assuming, when he threw the keys at you? That wasn’t an alcohol-related thing?
A…..(The witness shook her head.)
Q…..So whenever he was intoxicated, was he easy to get along with? Was he happy? Was he upset?
A…..He was easy to get along with.
Q…..What about you when you drink? Are you easy to get along with? Do you get upset more? Happy? Sad? Mean?
A…..I can get sad easier if I start thinking about stuff. I don’t know. I mean, I guess he was okay.
Q…..What about Kelsey taking baths or showers? What would be the normal mode for cleaning her? I mean, was there a preference or did it matter?
A…..Like, the routine kind of a deal?
Q…..Yeah. Did she take baths? Did she take showers? Did she take both? I mean, how did that work?
A…..She liked to take showers with Mommy.
Q…..Okay.
A…..Because she’d done that since she could sit up. She would take baths, you know, sometimes with Bubby and then sometimes with Whitney and Bubby.
Q…..Uh-huh. Is this an everyday thing? Do we take baths every day? Are we cleaned every day, or is it every other day? Does it vary?
A…..I’d usually—I’d usually had started cleaning her every—every day, or I might miss a day or something. So she was cleaned pretty often, because she would like to play outside in the dirt.
Q…..So it’s normally a shower with you or a bath with Whitney or Michael Gage?
A…..But she preferred just to take showers with Mommy.
Q…..Is there anything that prevented that from happening normally?
A…..She would ask me. She’d say, “I can take a shower with you?”
And I’d say, “Well, if you want to.”
And then, you Mike would say, “No, she can stay out here with us.”
And I’d say, “She just told me she wanted to take a shower with me.”
And he would say, “Well, she can stay out here and play with us.”
And I’d say, “Whatever.”
Q…..Would it bother him for Kelsey to take a shower with you?
A…..I mean, I didn’t think it bothered him. I just didn’t see what the big deal was. I never did.
Q…..So you don’t think it upset him if she took a bath or a shower with you?
A…..Not that I know of.
Q…..Okay.
A…..But he wanted to know why—
Q…..What about Mike? How often would he give Kelsey a bath? Did you-all have some kind of a set pattern during the week, who would give who a bath or who would do what? Was that your job?
A…..No.
Q…..Did you-guys have some kind of in-house rules that Mommy would give baths or Daddy would help? How did that work?
A…..No. It was just sometimes he’d say—you know, I’d say, “I’m going to give the kids a bath.” And then sometimes he’d say, Well, I’ll go ahead and do it tonight.”
And then I’d say, “Whatever,” or, you know, I may argue with him and say, “I wanted to do it.” It was just kind of whenever—
Q…..So would you say, then, you-guys jointly would make sure they were bathed?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..So you might do it half the time of the week and he might do it the other half?
A…..Well, maybe.
Q…..Or sometimes a bit more, depending maybe on what’s going on in your lives as far as work and etc., you know?
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q…..Did Michael seem to enjoy that? Did he mind it? I mean, a lot of husbands don’t like doing stuff like that.
A…..Well, you know I asked—I asked—maybe it was my mom. I asked her, you know,
”I’ve never seen somebody care so much, you know, that I was going to give them a bath. What’s the big deal?”
Q…..You mean care so much as keeping the kids clean?
A…..Like, “No, I’ll—you know, I’ll go ahead and do it tonight,” you know, or whatever. Because my daddy just wasn’t that way. My mom did all that stuff. And Mom even said—we kind of laughed about it.
Q…..Uh-huh. Did—do you remember anytime that maybe Kelsey—did she ever get sick when she was taking a bath, whenever, like, Mike was giving her a bath or you were giving her a bath? Has she ever vomited or anything?
A…..In the bathtub?
Q…..Or has Mike ever told you that maybe she got sick whenever he was giving her a bath?
A…..I haven’t thought about that. I don’t remember. I haven’t thought about that.
Q…..Well, can you think about it now?
A…..I don’t think she ever threw up in the bathtub.
Q…..You don’t remember Mike ever making a comment that she had thrown up or got sick while he was giving her a both or a shower or something?
A…..If she did, it was before, because I don’t think she ever did in the bathtub.
Q…..Okay, Well, has she ever thrown up with Mike that you’re aware of?
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q…..Okay. When would that occur?
A…..That would be—
Q…..When?
A…..You know, it got to where towards her recently that she would—I’d come back and I was, like. “What is going on?”
And he was, like, “She just threw up.”
And then sometimes—because I wouldn’t leave for a very long. I never left her for very long.
Q…..Where would you go when you’d leave?
A…..I’d run to the store or I might go and get something we needed for supper, or, you know, run and go get gas before you’ve got somewhere to go the next day, go get—go take the movies back or go get one.
Q….. Now, did she throw up whenever she was with you?
A…..The only I remember her throwing up when she was with me was when she was sick.
Q…..Wit the strep throat, probably, because I think that is something that usually occurs with strep threat is you’re nauseated a lot and you throw up.
A…..She was sick then. And then after she would have those seizures, she would throw up.
Q…..Now, that’s later, thought. Is that like April? When is that in 2005? August? Was that August when that started, sometime like that or—
A…..When I saw—the only seizure I saw was in August. I only say one.
Q.….Okay. Was that before the car wreck or after the car wreck?
A…..It was after.
Q…..Okay. You remember the day of the car wreck?
A…..It was after.
Q…..Okay. You remember the day of the car wreck?
A…..Not right off the top of my head.
Q…..Okay. Well, we’ve got some things wrote down we’ll go over here in a little bit.
A…..Okay.
Q…..So the only you’ve ever seen her throw up, then, when Kelsey was with you was when she had the strep throat, which was in September of “05. And then prior to that was when she had the seizure in—sometime in August of ’05?
A…..And then thing is, when—that seizure that I saw—
Q…..Uh-huh.
A…..—I don’t think she threw up after that one.
Q…..Okay.
A…..The one that I saw. I don’t think.
Q…..But when apparently Mike, I guess we could say, recently, if you was to leave and it Mike’s with her, then he would tell you hat she has thrown up, does the vomiting thing? Or do you come home and you see signs that she threw up because there’s food here and there? I mean—
A…..Like sometimes there was a pan or, you know, sometimes he’d have the towel down. And after—to where she had thrown up on the couch or he had changed her clothes.
Q…..How many time did this happen?
A…..There were a few.
Q…..How many is a few?
A…..Maybe less that—maybe less than ten.
Q…..Less than ten?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Okay. Eight times?
A…..I don’t know for sure.
Q…..Well, that’s a lot, isn’t it? I mean, did you think tat was kind of odd that when your daughter was with you she seems fine. And then when you go to take a movie back and she’s with Mike, she seems to have some kind of a stomach problem and she’s throwing up?
A…..What I thought it was—this is—because I –you know, what I thought it was, was that she had been jerked—you know, they took her away back in the day.
Q…..”They?” You mean DHS?
A…..Well, when Kathie did her guardianship.
Q…..Kathie Briggs?
A…..When, you know, she came and took her, you know, I thought it was, you know, her having separation anxiety and that she was just worried I wasn’t coming back.
Q…..Uh-huh.
A…..That’s what I associated it with.
Q…..Of all the times that she went to the doctor, did you ever express that to the doctor, that maybe she’s got some anxiety going on from the separation? Did you ever mention that to the doctor?
A…..I can’t remember if I mentioned it to the doctor, but I know I mentioned it to DHS and to CHBS.
Q….Okay. So now today, looking back on these vomiting incidents, what do you think is causing her to vomit?
A…..I think she was scared to death.
Q…..Of?
A…..I think she was scared of Mike.
Q…..Was anyone else usually at the home if you left and Mike was there?
A…..Sometimes Bubby or Whitney may be there.
Q…..Okay. Now, did Whitney—Whitney Porter is Mike’s daughter, and she’s what, eight or nine?
A…..Yeah. I think she’s eight.
Q…..Okay. Did Mike have full custody of her?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..So she was there a lot.
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q…..Did her mother get visitations on the weekends every now and then, or how did that work?
A…..She was usually with her grandma, because her mom had left.
Q…..Okay. What about Michael Gage? He’s what, two, three years old?
A…..He just turned two September 3rd.
Q…..Okay. Did Michael have full custody of Michael Gage, the son?
A…..No. When I first met him, they had shared parenting. It was, you know, kind of like joint custody, and then eventually she took him back to court and they gave him four-two.
Q…..Four-two? What does that mean?
A…..Four—like four days with her and then two days with him, something like that.
Q…..Okay.
A…..It confused me. I didn’t understand.
Q…..So then Michael, the son, isn’t always in the house.
A…..Right.
Q…..So there are so many days—more days being with his real mother, which her last name is Bruce; right?
A…..Alisha
Q…..Alisha. Alisha Bruce. Okay. So most of the time Michael Gage is with mom and then there’s fewer times that he would be with you-guys. But Whitney was there full-time unless on a weekend or something that she would go to her grandmother or something.
A…..Or her grandmother, you know, sometimes would come and get her during the—during the week sometimes, you know, and she’d take her to school.
Q…..Did those children seem to vomit and get sick in the house?
A…..(The witness shook her head.)
Q…..Only your daughter?
A…..(The witness shook her head.)
Q…..Did that seem odd at the time? Did you really think much of it or not?
A…..I just thought, you know, it was—she was worried. And that’s why I always promised her “I’ll be right back. I promise.”
Q…..How would she react? How would Kelsey react when you went to take movies back or go to the store? Did she say, “I want to go”? Did she say, “See you later”? How would she react?
A…..Well, she didn’t say, “See you later.”
Q…..What would she do?
A……I could tell she was, you know, sad or whatever, that she wanted to go. But she didn’t really say anything.
Q…..Did she grab a hold of your clothes? Grab a hold of your leg?
A…..No.
Q…..Grab a hold of your hand or anything? Run to you? I mean—
A…..I don’t think she ran to me. Sometimes, you know, she’d ask me, “I can go?”
And I’d say, “I’ll just be right back.”
And sometimes she’d look at me and she’d say—I’d say, “I’ll be right back okay.”
And she’d kind of look at me—she’d just look at me and say, “Okay”.
Q…..So you’re telling me, then, she didn’t throw a real big fit, then, if she didn’t go.
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..You could tell she was upset or didn’t like it__
A…..But she didn’t throw fits.
Q…..—but she didn’t throw a fit. But she would throw up after she’s hanging out at the house while you’re gone.
A…..And, you know, before, you know—you know, she may cry a little bit when I’d leave or whine whenever I’d be right back. But it was never to this—
Q…..And you were telling me earlier that Michael, during the week when it came bath time or shower time—it mainly would be a bath that he would give the children—that he volunteered to do it at least half the time?
A…..Yeah, I guess.
Q…..I mean, is that close?
A…..Yeah, that’s probably close.
Q…..Apparently, it didn’t bother him. He enjoyed doing it. For whatever reason, he didn’t have a problem with taking time out of his afternoon to bathe the children. Now, a lot of father’s probably don’t like to do that, because, I mean, I’d rather, you know, be selfish and watch some sports event or something.
How was Kelsey on verbal skills? I mean, we talked a little bit about that earlier, but would she talk to you? Could she communicate to you? If she was hungry, what would she tell you?
A…..”Mommy, I’m hungry.”
Q…..Okay. What if she needed to go to the bathroom?
A…..”Mommy, I need to go pee,” or, “Mommy, I need to go poop.”
Q…..What about if Michael’s beating me? I mean, did she ever say anything to you to indicate that maybe he was to forceful in discipline or anything? Did you ever get anything from her on that?
A…..She never said anything.
Q…..But the only thing that we do know is that when you went to leave, she really wasn’t pleased with that?
A…..Right.
Q…..But she really didn’t throw that big of a fit?
A…..No, she didn’t. She didn’t throw fits really. She was just a good kid.
Q…..So what else would she tell you? I mean, anything looking back on it? Is there anything you can think of that Kelsey might have told you that might be, you know, of interest to us as far as maybe the way Michael was treating her or anybody else was treating her?
A…..All I remember is her just kind of puckering up sometimes.
Q…..Puckering up? What’s puckering up?
A…..Kind of like, you know, she wanted to cry.
Q…..So she did like Mike?
A…..She acted like she was just crazy about him.
Q…..Uh-huh.
A…..I mean, you know, when I’d call on the phone, sometimes she’d say, “I want to talk,” and she’d talk to him, you know. And before she got off the phone she’d say, “Love you,” you know.
Q…..Okay. What would Mike—how was his actions towards her? Did he seem to like Kelsey?
A…..(The witness shook her head.)
Q…..Love her?
A…..He said he did.
Q…..Did you think he did? I mean you should be, as a mother living there, you should be able to get a gut feeling on things.
A…..Yeah, I mean, I thought he was—you know, he seemed to be so good with her. He seemed to be crazy about her.
Q…..Okay. What do you mean he was good with her?
A…..You know, like when she wouldn’t swallow, he would sit there and work with her too. I mean, it wasn’t just me trying to get her to—“Kelsey, you need to eat.” H would help.
Q…..So you’re saying he spent time with her—
A…..Yeah.
Q…..—on things?
A…..Yeah.
Q…..Did he ignore her ever?
A…..Not that I remember.
Q…..I mean, did the guy watch TV at all when he was home?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..I mean, did he have certain shows that we would watch?
A…..Yeah. Sometimes he would put, you know, Kelsey up in the chair with him, and sometimes she didn’t want to sit there. He would take Kelsey and Bubby outside sometimes when we moved to Mom’s out to swing. And I’d check and, you know, she was out there talking and laughing.
Q…..What if old Mike is watching his favorite show and he’s kicked back in the La-Z-Boy, and you said, “Mike, would you take the trash out?” Would he do it immediately or would he wait until after the show was—or how did that work?
A…..He wouldn’t do it immediately, no. but I took the trash out.
Q…..Okay. Well, that was just an example. I mean, has there ever been something that you’ve asked him to do or the kids have needed him to do something and there was something going on? I mean—
A…..It was, you know, “Wait until”—
Q…..Did he jump up, “Yes, ma’am. I’m taking her to the potty,” or is he one of those guys that procrastinates a little bit like most guys do?
A…..He procrastinates.
Q…..Okay. So he’s just not exactly the perfect old boy, then: right?
A…..Right.
Q…..I mean, he’s just, you know, he’s kind of—because earlier you were kind of making me feel like he’s the most perfect guy. I mean, he likes to bathe the children all the time and anytime you ask him to do something, he does it. But he’s just a typical guy.
A…..Right.
Q…..I mean, he procrastinates a little bit, you know. I don’t think everybody throws keys at their wives and hits them upside the head, but apparently once on occasion he’s done that.
Anything else that you could tell me in his behavior? I mean, anything else kind of interesting? You know, really, the kind of thing I’m trying to do today is find out more about your family life when you were married to Mike: the children, you, him, you know.
And it just seems like to me—of course, I’ve talked to you twice prior to that—that before, you answered stuff a whole lot easier than you are today. You really seem like you’re thinking. Are you feeling okay today? Is something bothering you? Are you on medication?
A…..No. I just want to—no.
Q…..Okay.
A…..I just want to get over—I want to make sure I get everything right.
Q…..Okay. I can understand that. But I just know you’ve kind of been hesitant on, you know, just kind of answering stuff. It seems like you’re really thinking about maybe that’s why.
A…..I just want to make sure I everything that, you know—because there’s a lot of stuff, you know, that now that I pay attention to it, it raises red flags now.
Q…..Meaning?
A…..Like when, supposedly, she would have seizures, I was always asleep and he was always up.
Q…..Uh-huh.
A…..And—
Q…..How many times did these seizures take place that you’re talking about there?
A…..That I know about or that, I mean—
Q…..That he told you about.
A…..—that he told me about?
Q…..Uh-huh.
A…..Maybe three or four.
Q…..And these are at the house?
A…..Uh-huh. These are at the house in Shawnee.
Q…..When?
A…..They started sometime after I had gotten her back.
Q…..And you got her back in—
A…..June.
Q…..June? Okay. Were you home when these things took place, these seizures?
A…..I was asleep.
Q…..Okay. And Kelsey is awake?
A…..Kelsey was asleep.
Q…..Okay. So you’re in bed asleep. Where’s Mike at? Is he up watching TV or something and he discovers she’s having a seizure?
A…..Right. Sometimes he was watching TV or sometimes—because his computer was in Kelsey’s room. Sometimes he’d be in there at the computer, and I would throw a fit about that.
Q…..His computer was in Kelsey’s room in Shawnee?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..So he’d be on the computer, and he would realize that she was having a seizure?
A…..Right.
Q…..Okay. Which, speaking of, there’s a question I’m going to ask you somewhere down the road and I might as well ask you now. What about—did Mike—was he a subscriber to Playboy or any pornographic stuff?
A…..Not that I knew of.
Q…..What about on the Web sites on his compuer?
A…..I don’t know. I’ve wondered here lately.
Q…..Okay. But you don’t know first hand?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Okay. Did you ever notice any behavioral changes with Kelsey?
A…..Like how?
Q…..Well, I know there was one time you were talking about that she was losing some hair. When was that, for example?
A…..That was in March.
Q…..Of ’05?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Okay. You said something about she was losing some hair. And there was a time, I think you said before, that whenever she didn’t want to talk on the phone—or maybe your mother told me that. Somebody told me that there was a time—
A…..When my mom got her back, she didn’t want to talk on the phone.
Q…..Okay.
A…..You know, Mom said she just didn’t want to have nothing to do with it.
Q…..Well, those are the behavioral changes I’m talking about.
A…..Okay.
Q…..So anything else like that other than those two?
A…..Her hair fell out and I didn’t understand that, because she had long hair, you know, and it was pretty thick. She didn’t want to talk on the phone.
Q…..Did she ever not want to go to Mike? I mean, that would be a behavioral change. Did you ever notice anything like that?
A…..That’s like how she was whenever he would just pick her up, you know, when she would kind of start crying or pucker up. She did that.
Q…..Isn’t that supposed to tell us something? I mean, now looking back, it might be easier, but can you kind of see that—
A…..Yeah, now I see it.
Q…..Because a lot of times little people don’t always tell us what they’re thinking or whatever. But sometimes on their reaction that they do, it’s kind of like an involuntary thing, you know. I think humans are probably that way, too—I mean, adults. I think there’s times, you know, that there’s sometimes you don’t really like people and you might stay away from them or act a little bit differently.
And you made the comment that she would pucker up. Anything else?
A…..And then, like, whenever I would get up and, you know, go out of the room, you know, she would—of course, you know, she would follow me. Or, you know, before, if I would get up and go out of the room, she—she would start crying, and I was like—you know, to even go to the kitchen. I mean, this was before June. But, I mean, just to go to the kitchen, she would start crying.
And, you know, if I got up and she wanted to follow me, Mike would say, “Kelsey, stay in here.”
And, you know, I was like, “She was just following me. I ‘m just going in here.”
And he was like, “Well, she can stay in here with us.” And I didn’t see what the big deal there was, either.
I needed to treat all the kids exactly how I treat Kelsey.
Q…..That’s something Mike would tell you?
A…..(The witness shook her head.)
Q…..Did you threat the other children differently?
A…..No, but, say, like—how do I explain it? Like, I didn’t, like, treat them differently, like meaning to. But, like, if I did—say, I blow dried Kelsey’s hair after she gets out of the bathtub, you know, her was like. “You need to do that do Whitney too.”
I was like, “Okay”.
Q…..Couldn’t Whitney do her own hair? I mean, does she normally dry her own hair?
A…..What she went through, she doesn’t have a mom, so I need to be treating her like I treat Kelsey. And I tried to explain to him “Kelsey’s my daughter,” you know. I’m not going to—naturally, I’m just not going to treat them exactly the same. And he just didn’t understand.
Q…..Did he?
A…..You know, I thought that he was stricter with Bubby than with Whitney.
Q…..Uh-huh.
A…..Which I even told him that.
And like if—I don’t know, just with Kelsey, we were a team. Everything came natural, you know. If I was going to paint my toenails, she just automatically knew it was her night to do her toenails too, you know.
And if Whitney wasn’t there, it was “Well, Kelsey’s not getting anything today at the store.”
I’d go, “Okay. That’s fine.”
And then Kelsey wasn’t to get her picture taken by herself anymore.
Q…..That’s something that Mike instructed?
A…..So my mom was going to take her and have hers done.
Q…..When did this happen?
A…..It wasn’t very long. That was when we were still living in Shawnee, but it wasn’t very long ago.
Q…..Okay. What was the reasoning of that?
A…..I don’t know. I just said that, you know, it had been so long—because used to, as you can see, I had her picture taken a lot, and I used to have them done almost every month.
And I told her, I said, “It’s been awhile since I’ve taken Kelsey’s picture.”
And he said, “Well, If you take her to have her picture taken,” he said, “all the kids are going to be in the picture.”
And I just wanted a picture, you know, of my baby. And he just said we weren’t going to do that anymore.
Q…..Okay. If he said that, how did he say that? I mean, is he the boss? I mean, does he pretty much call the shots at the house? I mean, let’s face it. In some households the women have a whole lot more say on what goes on than others.
A…..Yeah, I know.
Q…..What about your house?
A…..Certain things it was just what he said, and then, you know, I’d put my two cents in. But usually it was kind of the way he—and then sometimes it was what I wanted, you know. But on that, I knew it was—so, you know, I called Mom and told her, “You’re going to have to have Kelsey’s picture taken.”
Q…..So Mike didn’t want Kelsey to have photographs by herself taken?
A…..Not anymore.
Q…..He wanted Whitney and Michael Gage in there, the family look, I guess. Okay.
A…..You know, and I go back to thinking that here recently, you know, every time I would leave, something would happen. Like, you know, I wouldn’t be gone maybe 10 or 15 minutes. But now that I look at it, something, you know, would happen every time.
Q…..What would that something be?
A…..Like, one time she—I don’t even know where I went. But I came back and he said she had pulled—she was trying to find a –put a light bulb in her little lamp in her room. I still don’t know where she supposedly found this light bulb. But anyway, he said the lamp fell over and hit her on the face. So as soon as—I mean, by the time I got back, she had a bruise on her face.
Q…..And when was this?
A…..August or September.
Q…..Okay. We was just talking about some previous injuries, since you brought that up. We know January was the shoulder.
A…..Right.
Q…..Tell me about that.
A…..Whenever it was—one night she stayed with me, and she got out of bed.
Q…..And this is January the 9th or 10th?
A…..It’s somewhere in there. And she got out and that’s when she came in—because I went back and thought all of this through—that’s when she came into the bedroom with me. And then that Friday night—
Q…..Okay. Is this your house in Shawnee or the house in Meeker?
A…..No, that’s the apartment.
Q…..Was Mike there?
A…..No. And then that Friday night, we stayed at Mike’s house. And she—and that’s whenever I was coming out of the bathroom. And I opened the door and she said, “Mommy, I want out.”
And I asked her, I said, “What are you doing?”
And she said, “Mommy, I want out.”
So then, you know I looked her over and she seemed fine. Well, the next day I noticed she had the bruises on her head.
Q…..Now, is this going to be the same bedroom that she’s in that Mike also has the computer in?
A…..No.
Q…..At that time it was a different one?
A…..Yeah. And so then that Monday morning, I noticed her—she was swollen. And so I want ahead and took her to my Grandma’s, you know, and told her, “I think she broke her collarbone when she jumped out of bed and I’m going to take her to the doctor after work.”
And she said, “Okay.”
Q…..So that happened on the weekend at Mike’s house?
A…..Right. And that’s when I start now—I start wondering if it was even broken when she jumped out of bed, because she used it all that weekend.
Q…..What day would that have been on? You noticed it on that Monday being swollen?
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q…..But you saw her out of bed when?
A…..It was Thursday night and Friday night.
Q…..Thursday night and Friday night. And you were at Mike’s house?
A…..Friday night.
Q…..Friday night in Shawnee. So Thursday night she was out of the bed at your house?
A…..Right.
Q…..And you didn’t notice anything with the shoulder then?
A…..(The witness shook her head.)
Q…..And then Friday you-guys go—and this is going to be about the first week of January, I guess.
A…..Somewhere in there.
Q…..Because I’m thinking the 9th was when you were thinking that she fell out of bed or something.
A…..Somewhere in there.
Q…..And maybe she went to the doctor on the 10th.
A…..I know it was on a Monday.
Q…..Okay. Because I know, I think, a few days later, like on the 14th Ashley and Lance and maybe Kathie took her.
A…..And they took her back to the doctor.
Q…..The took her back, okay. So it’s going to be on that time frame. So the Thursday she’s at your house with you, and then the Friday you-guys were at Mike’s house—
A…..That’s right.
Q…..—through the weekend. And you take her to your grandmother’s—what’s your grandmother’s name?
A…..Mildred Fowler.
Q…..Mildred Fowler?—on Monday. And then you take her to the doctor on Monday?
A…..After I got off work.
Q…..Okay. Did Mike have any explanation about that injury or anything? Did he ever say anything?
A…..No, and I just—I couldn’t believe that she had used it normally until, you know, I noticed it was swollen.
Q…..But she still played a lot during the weekend like it didn’t bother her?
A…..(The witness shook her head.)
Q…..Was there any time that Mike was alone with her on that weekend?
A……I really don’t remember.
Q…..Okay. But it’s possible that it could have been?
A…..I mean, it’s possible. I mean, he was around.
Q…..But you seem to—did you go to bed early a lot of times and he was still up doing stuff like computer or TV, or did you-guys go to bed at the same time?
A…..Back then, I think we pretty much went to bed at the same time.
Q…..And what was the routine, you know, like the months that you—you told me, I think, the other day that it was October or November of ’04 when you started dating him.
A…..October.
Q…..October?
A…..October 15th.
Q…..October 15th, 2004. Okay. Did he come over? Did you go to his house? Did he come to your house, you know, once a week? Twice a week? How did that work?
A…..Well, sometimes, you know, I would go to his house or he would come to my apartment.
Q…..Okay. You spent the night over there or he spent the night over at your house? When did that progress?
A…..I don’t think so.
Q…Was that by November? December?
A…..Because I knew—I know for a while I didn’t, you know—I didn’t stay over there.
Q…..Okay. What about by January?
A…..Yeah. Because that’s whenever we were going over there.
Q…..And then you said during that time in January that the collarbone is broken that you were staying over at his house?
A…..I did that weekend.
Q…..Did the Meeker police ever ask you that question? Because I know you were interviewed by them. I’ve got copies of their reports and stuff.
A…..Well, I’m trying to think if they did or not. I don’t remember if they asked me if I did.
Q…..Well, I mean, first of all, if it happened in Shawnee, they have no legal jurisdiction.
A…..Right. Because after I went back and thought about this—because I was thinking it happened when she got out of bed.
Q…..On Thursday?
A…..Right.
Q…..While you were at your house there in Meeker.
A…..Right.
Q…..But you don’t know that for sure.
A…..Right. I don’t know.
Q…..I don’t think I know. I don’t think Steve knows. I don’t think anybody knows for sure when that occurred, but Monday is when you noticed some swelling in it.
A…..Right.
Q…..And usually swelling happens sometimes usually pretty soon around an injury, you know, hours or certain amount of hours, I would think, but I’m not a doctor.
A…..And I’ve never broken anything, so I don’t know.
Q…..So did Meeker ever interview Michael?
A…..No. They said they were going to.
Q…..But they never did?
A…..But they didn’t.
Q…..Okay. And then I know something about the report. They took some photographs of Kelsey’s bed. There’s a slide, I think, by the bed. And there just happens to be a hairbrush in the floor.
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..And we do know that on the 14th—and you can agree with me—that whenever Ashley and Lance and maybe Kathie took your daughter Kelsey to the hospital in Shawnee, she had some bruising and some marks.
A…..Some red dots.
Q…..On her butt.
A…..Yeah. And whenever they showed me that picture at the police station, I said, “Now, what is that?”
And they said, “Well that’s what we are asking you.”
And I said, “Well, that’s what I’m asking you-all.”
Q…..Are you talking about the marks on her butt?
A…..Yeah, them little red dots.
Q…..Okay.
A…..and then I said, “Well, I don’t know what that is because I’ve never seen that.”
And so then they come back and they just said that—told about some hairbrush. I didn’t pay no attention. I didn’t know—
Q…..Because I think you told them at that point, they asked you, “How did your daughter get those injuries?” And you said you didn’t know.
A…..Right.
Q…..And then they, apparently, saw the brush and they give you that as maybe a possibility.
A…..That’s what they think might have happened.
Q…..So what did you think about those marks on your daughter’s butt? What do you think they were?
A…..I don’t know, because that’s been my question since then.
Q…..Okay.
A…..And those have never been answered.
Q…..Well, did that happen on your watch or on Kathie and Lance’s watch?
A…..That, I don’t know, because they—they even asked them, okay, well, she goes to Kathie’s and then she goes to-with whoever else. And then Ashley’s in there giving her a bath and then that’s when she sees it.
Q…..Right. and to me, that almost makes me think they discovered it, that they didn’t do that.
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..What do you think?
A…..I don’t know.
Q…..Do you think Ashley or Kathie would hurt Kelsey?
A…..Back then, I thought Ashley might.
Q…..Okay. What about now? Do you still think that?
A…..Because I don’t really know her and I didn’t really—I don’t know. I didn’t trust her.
Q…..Well, what about now? I mean, do you think that—I mean, can they really rule out the fact that Michael could have been involved in that?
A…..No, we can’t rule it out, of course.
Q….I don’t think we can rule it out. And, of course, you’ve had—I mean, did you ever hit her with anything like that to cause these kind of marks?
A…..No.
Q…..Because, you know, my first thought on the deal about the hairbrush when I look at it, I’m thinking that’s crazy. I mean, because a little girl, you know, her butt is probably ten inches off the ground and she’s wearing a Pull-Up or diaper. I mean, how many times would you stand up and fall on a brush? I mean, nobody is that stupid, even little kids. No one likes pain. You know, I just can’t—I mean, really, it makes me mad when I see the photographs, which I saw some at DHS, which I think might have been something Kathie had taken. It looked terrible.
A…..Uh-huh. I’ve seen that.
Q…..The looked terrible, in my opinion. And that thing about falling makes no sense whatsoever, so somebody—
A…..Well, that’s what I said, you know. I didn’t understand that. I said, “Hairbrush,” and when they mentioned that to me, I went back and looked.
Q…..Well, I’ve kind of got a little calendar here. And in January, I know there was a time Ashley and Lance on the 14th, 15th, 16th, and 17th, that they have Kelsey. Now apparently, from my recollection, the 14th is when they took her to the doctor, and then you took her on the 10th.
A…..Right.
Q…..So maybe the injuries weren’t there the 10th or the doctor didn’t see them. I don’t know. But the doctor did look at them on the 14th. I think their awareness of it was when were giving the bath, Ashley was, and they saw the injury. And that’s my interpretation of what I’ve read.
So what about from the time that you took her to the doctor on the 10th to the 14th? Did you and Mike—I mean, did you have Kelsey at that point up to the 14th?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..So that would mean, then, that if—if we consider here that Ashley and Lance and Kathie didn’t do the injuries, then that means it had to come during your watch—
A…..Right.
Q…..—which would mean while she was with you. And that would put us down to the 11th, 12th, and 13th, and that’s going to be a Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Were you working at the time?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Okay, Did she go to day care? Was Kelsey in day care, or who would watch her? Would it have been your grandmother, Mrs. Fowler?
A…..My grandmother watched her on the 10the, but I don’t know if she watched her the next day or not. I don’t know.
Q…..Okay. Well, there’s three days, 11, 12, and 13. Who would have watched her?
A……And I know at some point—I don’t know if it was that week or it was, you know, some other time, when Mike did watch Bubby and Kelsey.
Q…..Now, we’re talking about during the day?
A…..Yeah.
Q…..Where did you work at this time?
A…..Lewis Manufacturing.
Q…..Where?
A…..Lewis Manufacturing.
Q…..Okay. Where’s that at? Meeker?
A…..It’s like right there on the corner where Midwest is, the manufacturing part, it’s right next door.
Q…..What do they make?
A…..We made grips for oil fields. We braid them on these poles.
Q…..Grips?
A…..For oil fields. It’s kind of like Chinese handcuffs.
Q…..Well, I mean, I was just curious. I don’t have a clue what that is.
Your talking about the-like a line going on the ground or are you talking about pipes into the well?
A…..I don’t have a clue. I just braid them.
Q…..Well, I mean, it doesn’t really matter. I was just kind of curious.
So what shift did you work at the time?
A…..From—
Q…..—in January: Did you work a day shift, eight to five?
A…..No, it’s from seven to four.
Q….Seven in the morning until four in the afternoon?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..What did Mike work at that time?
A…..Whenever.
Q…..So you’re saying, then, there’s a chance that he could have been watching her on the days up the 14th after the 10th of January.
A…..I’m saying there was sometime in January he did watch Bubby and Kelsey.
Q…..Okay. But you can’t remember?
A…..But I don’t remember what day.
Q…..Well, if—so either your grandmother would have watched Kelsey or—is there any day care at that time?
A…..She was closed at some point, because she went on a trip.
Q…..Who, the day care people?
A…..Ms. Julie
Q…..Julie—
A…..Sebastian.
Q…..Sebastian?
A….Uh-huh.
Q…..Okay. Well, I mean, I would think that there ought to be a time there from the 10th to the 14th, you know, maybe somebody got a little rough with Kelsey. Because. I mean, from what I’ve seen on the photographs, it looks to me like somebody, you know, put some kind of marks on her.
A…..Well, then, and the ones on her head, I called my grandma last night, because it wasn’t on the doctor’s thing. And I did call and ask her about it. And she said, yes, she did have the bruises on her face.
Q…..At this time after the shoulder break?
A…..On the 10th when my grandma watched her. And she said yes, there were.
Q…..Where did those bruises come about?
A…..That’s whenever she hopped out of her bed.
Q…..When she fell out of the bed?
A…..And that’s what—you know, when I dropped her off with Kathie, I explained that to her and everything and told her about, you know, if she had any pain, to give her Tylenol.
Q…..So what day did Kathie get her on that week after the 10th? Would it be that Monday or Tuesday?
A…..No, she got her that morning.
Q…..Okay, Kathie. I was thinking about the day care lady. That was Julie.
A…..Kathie picked her up.
Q…..Okay. But you didn’t remember anything on the—
A…..No. And I’ve never been answer to that.
Q…..So if you worked the day shift on that Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and even Monday, then that night, if you didn’t always give their baths or whatever, unless you changed her Pull-Up or her diaper, you probably wouldn’t be looking at her butt.
A…..Right. And then, like whenever I would change her Pull-Up, it was like she would stand in between my legs and then she would just, you know, step into them and I just pulled it up. Back then, I didn’t look for anything.
Q…..Well, how would you wipe her butt if she pooped? I mean—
A…..I’d just wipe her butt.
Q…..I mean, is she on her stomach? Is she on her back?
A…..She’d be sitting on her—potty chair. That’s when she still used the potty chair.
Q…..Okay.
A…..I don’t remember if she pooped.
Q…..Okay. And then after that injury, the next one is going to be the legs. And it seemed like—was it April when she went to the zoo?
A…..Yes.
Q…..With your sister-in-law?
A….Yes.
Q…..Do you member what day?
A…..No, not exactly. It was—I think it was the 14th.
Q…..I think you’re right. April the 14th. And your sister-in-law—is Curtis your brother?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Curtis Smith?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..And you have a sister too?
A…..Uh-huh?
Q…..What’s her name?
A…..I have two sisters, Rachelle and Janet.
Q…..Where does Rachelle live?
A…..Rachelle lives right now with her boyfriend.
Q……And what about Janet?
A…..Janet lives with her husband in Shawnee.
Q…..Okay. I don’t think I really remember any of them, but I remember seeing Curtis’s name. And apparently that’s going to be—
A…..Miste.
Q…..Miste is going to be his wife.
A…..Right.
Q…..Okay. So that took place on the 14th. And what was the injury on that?
A…..That’s whenever she rolled her little ankle wearing her purple platform flip-flops. And Miste told me she didn’t want to walk on it. So Miste comes and gets me from work and we take her to Urgent Care down by Unity down by Firelake, and they say she has a sprained ankle.
Q…..Okay. Do you remember the doctor at the time?
A…..No.
Q…..And then on the 15th, did anything else happen? Did she stay with you from the 14th on or—is there anything—let’s put it back this way: Is there anything to doubt other than it was a sprained ankle at that point? Because we know later on her legs were broke.
A…..Right.
Q…..But looking back on that day, I mean, she was walking okay, I assume?
A…..Yeah, she just limped on it.
Q…..And whenever the doctor was examining her, did they think it was the ankle? I mean, like an adult, they probably, you know, twist your ankle, “Does this hurt?”
“Does this feel good?”
A…..The might have done that.
Q…..Can you really do that with somebody that’s under three?
A…..The might have done that, but I’m not sure.
Q…..Did they X-ray it?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..And it was okay?
A…..And they said it was fine.
Q…..It was sprung?
A…..That’s what they said.
Q….They could tell that on the X-ray.
A…..They even gave me a piece of paper.
Q…..Right. I think I’ve seen a copy of that. It was in some of the DHS stuff. Okay. So what transpires from that point?
A…..I took her back to Kathie, me and my sister-in-law, at a ball field and told her that she had a sprained ankle, explained it to her. And she tried to hand me the piece of paper back and said, “Here. You keep this for your file.”
And I said, “No, you keep that piece of paper.”
And I was supposed to go back and pick her up that night after their birthday party. And then when I go to pick her up, the girls meets me outside and says that they can’t give her back to me because I took her to the Urgent Care.
Q…..Okay. Now, when is it that we determine that the legs are actually broken?
A…..Maybe around the 25th. It was on a Monday.
Q…..Okay. So is there times, then, I guess, in April that Mike is with you? Because you do marry Mike, I think on the 18th, isn’t it?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..April the 18th?
A…..Uh-huh. And Kelsey was there and she was standing.
Q…..And you take her to the doctor on the 24th, didn’t you say?
A…..On a Monday.
Q…..The 25th. Okay.
A…..I took her to DHS and then to the doctor. My mom was with me.
Q…..Okay. So from the point that the ankle is sprained on the 14th and you-guys get married on the 18th, and you’ve got Kelsey even up to the 25th when you take her to the doctor and it’s determined that the legs are broke. Now, I think, if I recall, you took her to DHS and they told you to take her to the doctor.
A…..Right.
Q…..But she wasn’t walking or something?
A…..Yeah, because on the 18th I dropped her back off to Kathie, and I think it was like five o’clock, and then I picker her back up later that week sometime. And then I—when I picked her up, I noticed she was crawling.
Q…..Uh-huh.
A…..And Kathie told me earlier that week she had taken about four steps and fell and complained of it hurting.
Q…..Okay. So she’s crawling on the 21st when you pick her back up?
A…..Right. And then that whole weekend, I continued to make her walk, because the doctor told me, you know, on a sprained ankle continue making them walk, so that’s what I did.
Q…..That would be the weekend of the 16th and 17th. You took her on the 14th, which was a Thursday, so the weekend would be the 16th and 17th of April. Is Michael working with her on walking?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Did he seem agitated or anything?
A…..I don’t know that he seemed agitated. I know he was just telling her she had to walk. And at some point, I wasn’t around and he said he had made her walk so many times from like the kitchen and the living room and wherever.
Q…..Is he, like, holding her hand and helping her walk?
A…..I don’t know if he did or not. I know the way I did it was I would—I would sit at one end of the hallway, you know, and clap for her and tell her to come on or whatever. She’d walk to me and when she got to the one end of the hall, I’d go back to the other end and she would walk to me again. And we might do that a couple of times and then I’d let her rest.
Q….Did it seem like it was bothering her to walk on it?
A…..I just—
Q…..Were you still thinking it was the ankle or is it the legs?
A…..I thought it was still her ankle from trying to—you know, from not using it—from going to running around all the time on it nonstop to not very much.
Q…..From the zoo trip on the 14th and that weekend of the 16th or 17th, you-guys are working on getting her to walk a little bit, and she’s walking okay.
A…..Yeah, that weekend she was fine. The 18th, she was still standing.
Q…..Okay. And you-guys get married on the 18th.
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..And then you get her again on probably Thursday, the 21st, according to DHS, the little time scale that they’ve got here.
A…..Right.
Q…..So then Kathie has got her from the 19th to the 20th. But could you tell that during that weekend that it was hard for her to walk? I mean, did it seem like it was bothering her when you-guys were doing what the doctor told you to do for a sprain?
A…..No. From—from whatever it was like really painful for her to walk was after the 20—yeah, to that weekend, to that 25th. That’s when it was—
Q…..Okay. Well, I thought when you said you picked her up from Kathie, she wouldn’t walk.
A…..Right. And—because she was crawling. And so I continued to make her walk—
Q…..Okay.
A…..—that weekend.
Q…..But did it seem like the weekend after the sprain that it was bothering her to walk when you-guys were trying to get her to walk like what the doctor instructed?
A…..Yea, she still kind of—she limped on it, but it wasn’t anything like this weekend.
Q…..Okay.
A…..It was just more—seemed to be more painful for her that weekend. So I thought, you know, that she just wasn’t walking that and it just didn’t—
Q…..What I’m trying to figure out is to determine when the injury could have taken place, if it was back on the 14th, if it was a sprain, or was her legs broke then or what. I mean, it would be kind of neat to be able to pinpoint—
A…..I know.
Q…..—you know, the exact time that that might have occurred. And even though DHS had worked on this or whatever, I don’t know if it was ever determined. But I have more faith in us that maybe we can get that determined.
A…..Right.
Q…..And I think the closest we can go by is what you can tell us as far as what kind of pain she was in. I mean, obviously, there is the point where she’s not wanting to walk on it. But is there anything to say, though, that after the 14th that maybe they were broke and maybe that she was having some trouble? Or maybe it was the sprain and the breaks happened that weekend when you and Mike are working on walking her? I mean, that’s what I’m trying to figure out, if there’s any way that we could kind of pinpoint what you can recollect when it was really bother her.
A…..Because from what all I know is when I took her to the doctor over the legs the 25th, she said that the right one was consistent wit the zoo, that it could have happened when they thought it was a sprain. And then the lift one could have been from overcompensation, or however you say that. That was the explanation I got.
Q…..Okay. Well, I don’t know. I mean, I understand they’re spiral fractures and they claim a spiral fracture is not something that usually happens on the normal—it can be, but it’s usually twisting. And it’s kind of hard for children to twist normally, you know, without help. I mean, usually I think that’s supposed to be a sign that they’ve been abused. That’s my recollection of what I’ve gathered, you know, from hearing the spiral factures.
And I think I did see a doctor’s report were one said one might have been prior to the other.
A…..Right.
Q…..But there’s so many different doctors that’s been looking, you know, at some of these things. I’m not sure who’s a good doctor and who’s a quack. I mean, let’s face it.
There’s different levels of people’s abilities, investigators, lawyers, doctors, etc. So it’s really kind of—you know, it’s going to be interesting to know what realy is the real version. I mean, I would like to know that myself.
A…..Well, and I have—the questions we’ve got is this doctor that is saying that it was abuse, they took her—he took her casts off—
Q…..That’s the guy in Norman at OU Medical Center?
A…..Yeah.—when they were only on for a week and she was still in pain.
Q…..Right.
A…..I mean, we haven’t ever gotten that answer, either, and that makes me mad.
Q…..Well, I mean, it’s aggravating to, too, looking through this, to see somebody would do that. I mean, I don’t know the answer.
But anyway, as far as you know, the, the 14th is the zoo thing. We’ve fot a sprained ankle.
A…..Right.
Q…..You-guys are working with her on the weekend to walk, and then you’re getting married on the 18th. So, I mean, you’ve got a lot of stuff going on too. I mean, you and Mike have a lot of stuff going on. That’s a big day, isn’t it, I mean, usually.
A…..I guess.
Q…..Do you think that the legs were actually broke from the zoo, or do you think it was just a sprained ankle?
A…..I don’t know, but I know it was just—whether it was just a sprain or if that one was broken, I know it was just one, because—
Q…..Could you tell by the way she walked that just one hurt more than the other?
A…..Yeah, because she would just limp on it, and she would still stand up.
Q…..Which one was she limping on?
A…..It was her right one.
Q…..Her right leg?
A…..That she was limping on. I believe that’s right.
Q….Well, what do you think whenever Kathie had her? I mean, do you think Kathie and them might have broke her leg?
A…..I don’t see that happening.
Q…..Do you think Mike might have had something to do with it?
A…..I don’t know.
Q…..Did you?
A…..No.
Q…..Well, I have to ask the questions. Sometimes they seem kind of stupid, but, I mean—
A…..There’s no way.
Q…..Was there any other major injuries that occurred? I know the two breaks. The January and the April thing are kind of the big deals.
A…..Yeah, there’s no more major.
Q…..And I was talking to Steve and apparently there were some other bruises or something that you’ve noticed kind of at different times, and we’ll kind of get to that.
Did Mike ever give any explanations on some of the injuries, the bruises and stuff?
A…..There was always an explanation.
Q…..Did he have one for the collarbone?
A…..(The witness shook her head.)
Q…..What about the bruises back—let’s see. That was the 10th of January. What about the 14th of January after Ashley—or, I’m sorry, after Ashley and Lance took Kelsey to the doctor? Did he have any explanation for that stuff?
A…..No
Q…..Did you?
A…..No.
Q…..Well, something was there.
A…..Right. I understand that. But, no.
Q…..But you’re not aware of Mike ever busting her in your presence, then?
A…..Not in my presence. I’ve never seen anything.
Q…..So it’s a mystery, then, to us at this point. Did—Mike have an explanation on the ankle thing? I mean, did you think that’s how it got hurt, at the zoo?
A…..As far as I know, yeah.
Q…..I mean, that was your understanding that she hurt herself at the zoo; fell, twisted the ankle or something on the flip-flop? I mean—
A…..You’d have to ask her.
Q…..But there’s no reason to doubt what she’s telling us?
A…..No.
Q…..Is she a pretty nice lady?
A…..They loved Kelsey to death.
Q…..Did Mike ever shake Kelsey? Did you ever see him shake her?
A…..Not that I’ve seen. I would have flipped out.
Q…..I mean, you don’t recall that?
A…..(The witness shook her head.)
Q…..Okay.
A…..Can I tell you one incident that really ticked me off?
Q…..Sure.
A…..That whenever she had soap in her eye and she had rubbed it, you know, red, and she—the sun kind of hurt her eye, so we couldn’t go to Frontier City like we had planned on going, and, which upset everybody.
But I went somewhere and I come back. And Mike, Bubby, Whitney, and Kelsey are all back there in our bedroom on the bed. And Kelsey, I think, is sitting on Mike’s stomach. And he had her eyes taped shut and her mouth taped shut and they were all laughing at her.
I walked in there and I was like. “What the hell are you doing?” and I just jerked her up and took her out of there.
Q…..When was that? What month was that? Do you remember?
A…..It was when we were supposed to go to Frontier City.
Q…..We had talked about that earlier and I don’t remember exactly. Is that going to be in ’05?
A…..Uh-huh. It was—
Q…..Is it after the legs were broke?
A…..Yeah. It wasn’t very long ago.
Q…..So September?
A…..It was somewhere around there. It was around when we were—where both of the kids’ birthdays were.
Q…..So Whitney and Bubby was there and Mike and Kelsey. What kind of tape did he use?
A…..Like masking tape.
Q…..Masking tape? Like you paint—
A…..Like the clear-well, the clear kind of stuff like you use for—for like Christmas paper.
Q…..That’s more of a Scotch tape kind of a thing, isn’t it, the clear?
A…..Okay.
Q…..Masking tape, I think, is like white, like if you’re painting something and you put it around windows or trim.
A…..Well, this was the clear stuff.
Q…..Okay. He taped her eyes shut and put it over her mouth?
A…..And when I asked him, when I said, “What the hell are you doing?” he was like, “Well, she was laughing until you came in here. She wasn’t laughing, because she couldn’t see me, because her eyes were taped shut.
Q…..Was she crying?
A…..No. She was just sitting there.
Q…..Okay.
A…..and I called my mom about that too.
Q…..You didn’t mention this the other day when I interviewed you.
A…..I just thought about it the other day, because—
Q…..After Steve was asking some questions?
A…..I’ve been thinking nonstop about stuff like that I had missed and stuff that was just—just kind of ticked me off.
Q…..I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anybody doing that to a little kid before. That’s a new one.
A…..That made me really mad. And then I just—
Q…..Okay. Anything else since you’re kind of talking about that?
A……No.
Q…..Did you ever see any bruises on Kelsey’s face or the jaw area?
A…..Right here, yeah. I never knew where those came from.
Q…..When was that that you think you saw those?
A…..Just something when—like, when I got her back—
Q…..Got her back? Are you talking about June?
A…..Yeah.
Q…...Okay.
A……They would just kind of—I thought they just popped up, because, you know, I would even ask, you know, “Mike, do you know where this came from?”
And he was like, “I have no idea.”
But it was just like these little round ones. And she even had one that Tuesday, because Jean asked her bout it, you know. Of course, Kelsey, she ignored it because she got tired of people asking her. But—I guess she did.
Q…..How often did Mrs. Bonner come by?
A…..Once a week.
Q…..And that happened after June, right, after Kelsey came back to your house?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..And she’s the CHBS lady: right?
A……Uh-huh.
Q…..And she’d come at least once a week and she’d document bruises and those kinds of tings, injuries.
A…..and she even documented when she had the eye. She did a critical incident report on that, I think.
Q…..Did Mike have any feelings about the CHBS lady coming over, Mrs. Bonner: Was he okay with it?
A…..He seemed to have agreed with me that I didn’t care how often they came.
Q…..Uh-huh.
A…..He said he didn’t either.
Q…..And Yolanda Hunter was your DHS caseworker?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..How often did she come?
A…..Let’s see. When we were in Shawnee, she didn’t come by very often unless, you know, I called her and told her “I want to come by and see that” to where, you know, she could look at whatever. She came by and seen her eye. One Friday she came by in—I can’t remember if it was in—I think it might have been October. We were already at Mom’s house, and I was getting Kelsey out of the bathtub or out of the shower when she came.
Q…..Do you consider yourself an observant person?
A…..Sometimes no.
Q…..I mean, because we’ve got some bruises and stuff going on. I mean, do you think that you investigated those things fully?
A…..I just thought she was bruising easily, like, if she just, you know, bumped into something. That’s why I was taking her to the doctor and having blood work done to see if there was a reason. My mom was afraid she had leukemia, is why she was bruising so easily.
Q…..But all that came back negative, though, right? Because you guys had a CAT scan done, you had the blood work done, you had the bone density thing done. All those things come back negative, okay. So kind of the question was, When you look at some of these things that are going on, I mean, do you think that maybe you had good enough explanations, I mean, or whatever? I mean, you seem to be able to feel okay with it? I mean, you didn’t have a red flag come up?
A…..Yeah, because I was getting aggravated, because, you know, I even asked Mom. I said, “Everything is coming back normal and above normal. What is going on here?” Now, I even asked Mom that. I don’t know. There has got to be—you know, we knew there had to be an explanation.
Q…..Well, on these bruises on the face, is there a chance that—have you ever grabbed her by the face or anything that might have caused the bruise?
A…..No. Mike used to—when she wouldn’t eat, he would kind of do this.
Q…..So he would rub her jaws—
A…..To try to get her to chew.
Q…..—to help her swallow or chew?
A…..To help her chew.
Q…..Did he do that regular?
A…..I think he quit doing that.
Q…..Okay. So when did this go on that he would do that?
A…..Like when she came back about in June or somewhere in there, he was. When I seen him doing that, I told him, I was like, “Don’t be doing that.” I told him to quit doing it, because she doesn’t like it.
Q…..Well, I’m just wondering. I mean, do you think it’s a possibility that if he was helping her chew or whatever, that might be a normal place that he might grab her, too, to try to explain on the bruises? I mean, if you didn’t do it and if you wasn’t grabbing her there, somebody else apparently was if she was getting bruises, or she was falling and bumping into things. I guess you could also think that might be a possibility.
And—any other facial stuff? I mean, was there that many times you saw bruises on the face? You said June of ’05. Andy other time?
A…..Here recently after we had moved back to Mom’s house, which Kelsey—Kelsey grew up in that house for like a year and a half, you know. She would-she wanted to walk on the stairs. And I went to my grandma’s, I think it was, to get water or something at my grandma’s and come back.
And Mike said, “Is there—is there a bump right there?”
And I said, “It’s red. Why?”
And he said, “Well Kelsey fell down the stairs.”
And I said, “When? Why? What happened?”
Q…..At the new house?
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q…..Those stairs are pretty steep.
A…..But that’s what—you know, she has never fallen down those stairs ever.
And I said, “What happened?”
Q…..He said she rolled, like, all the way down them?
A…..No.
Q…..Or just fell on a couple?
A…..I think he said maybe halfway. But I didn’t—that one, I wasn’t too sure about. I called my mom on that one.
And anyway, I said, “Well, where is she at?” you know, and I remember she was just sitting right there on the couch or she was off playing or what. But I looked at her and she just had a little—I mean a little bitty bruise maybe above one of her eyebrows—I think it might have been this one—and a little skin above her lip.
And supposedly—I mean, that’s what I didn’t grasp, because as easily as she was supposedly bruising, if she would have fell down them stairs, she would have had more than just that. I mean, that’s kind of what I thought.
And so I don’t remember when it was, but I called my mom and told her. And even Mom said last night, she said, “That raised a red flag to me.” She said, “That was mainly the first time,” but she said if I had got—she said, “If we would have had a little bit longer, something else, you know, would have happened while you were gone.” She said, “I would have asked him, you know, Mike, how come when Raye Dawn leaves for just a second, something happens?” You know, Mom thought, well, maybe they don’t watch Kelsey as closely as Raye Dawn does or—you know.
Q…..So whenever he said she fell down the stairs, you feel that that maybe didn’t happen?
A…..Because she’s never fallen down the stairs.
Q…..And if she would have fallen down the stairs, you think she would have had more injuries?
A…..I think she would have had, you know, like, more of a bruise than just the little bitty one she had and just the little scratch. I didn’t understand the little scratch.
Q…..And I think we kind of talked about earlier Mike’s routine on staying over before you got married to him. You met him October the 14th, right, and started dating?
A…..October 15th.
Q…..15th?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..And then it progresses, I guess. I mean, is tat like a couple of times a week you’re with him? Two or three times a week? One time a week? What would you guess?
A…..Somewhere around, yeah, in there, because he would either, like, come to my apartment and then sometimes I’d go to his, his house.
Q…..When was it that you saw him every day of the week, probably?
A……Oh, wow. Every day of the week?
Q…..Well, usually in relationships, you know, there comes a point where you just can’t live without seeing that other person.
A…..I know.
Q…..Did that ever transpire?
A…..It might have been December sometime. I mean—yeah, because at some point, because in November he went to Las Vegas, so I know I didn’t see him then.
Q…..And then Christmas, you know, we have Christmas time coming up in December. And then, you know, you’ve got New Year’s Eve in January. Were you-guys pretty much a couple by January the 1st?
A…..Yeah.
Q…..So you’d either be there or he’d be at your house?
A…..Because, I mean, you know, he just seemed like—you know, because I hadn’t been—I hadn’t dated anybody in, you know, since I’d gotten pregnant with Kelsey except for maybe one guy. And then I was single all the other time.
Q…..And Mike’s a nice looking guy.
A…..Yeah, and then—
Q…..He’s got a job, and hat’s a plus.
A…..And he had two kids of his own. And that was big thing for me, because I knew I didn’t want to date somebody who had no kids, because then, you know, they didn’t have their established responsibility.
Q……Of course, he has two different kids with two different women—
A…..Yes, I know.
Q…..—that he wasn’t married to very long or even married to.
A…..But what I saw was, you know, he had—you know, obviously, you know, he had responsibility. He took care of, you know, his daughter all the time. He had Bubby sometimes, you know, so to me that was—
Q…..Looks like a pretty good family guy kind of? Is that what you were thinking?
A…Yeah, and responsible. And, you know, he works. He’s not a bum, you know. I just thought—you know, because I hadn’t wanted to date for—until not very long before I met him.
Q…..Back on January the 11th, let’s see, that’s the Tuesday you go to pick up Whitney.
A…..Huh?
Q…..Not January the 11th. October.
A…..Oh.
Q…..I’m sorry. On October the 11th on Tuesday when you go to pick up Whitney, why did you pick Whitney up?
A…..Me and Kelsey go to lay down in bed. I had called Mike before whenever we laid down. And he said, “Okay. Well, when I get off,” he said, “I’ll come home and you can go get Whitney.”
Q…..Did you normally go get Whitney at school?
A…..Sometimes. Sometimes all of us would go.
Q…...How often did you go? Was there any reason why you went that day? That’s what I really probably want to know.
A…..I know.
Q…..What was the reason that you went that day of all days?
A…..Exactly. Pretty much just like the same argument, because we had been arguing the week before and—
Q…..About?
A…..Just stuff. That’s another story.
Q…..Well, let’s get to it while we’re here.
A…..Well, which one—okay. You want me to go back? Okay. We signed—
Q…..Well, I mean, we’re dealing with the question of why did you pick up Whitney? What was such the big issue that you had—I mean, you’re there sleeping. What was it so important to Mike to wake you up from what you said earlier that I talked to you—that you remember from noon to 1:30 Mrs. Bonner, the CHBS lady, is at the house. You and your daughter—you’re getting tired. You-guys go up and get on the king-sized bed—not u, because it is downstairs—get in bed and watch Montel Williams: isn’t that right?
A…..Right.
Q…..And you fall asleep, she’s eating some raisins, you know, at that point, and then he wakes you up. Michael come home, I think you told me, at 2:45, a quarter till three, and Whitney gets out of school at 3:10.
A…..Right.
Q…..From Sequoyah Elementary School in Shawnee: right?
A…..Right.
Q…..So there was something about—I mean, a considerate guy would probably—his wife’s pregnant, let you just go ahead and asleep, you know. “I’ll run and get Whitney for you.” Or I might have even went before I came home. He’s already in Meeker. Why does he drive five miles out to your house when he could have already been to school to pick her up? What was such the big thing on October the 11th that you had to go get Whitney?
A…..When I called him on the phone, you know, and told him we were going to lay down, blah, blah, blah, he said. “Okay.” He said, “Whenever”—he said, “When I get off, I’ll come home and you can go get Whitney.” Okay, You know, just whatever. I hang up the phone. And then he comes home, and I don’t know if he tapped me or if I just woke up and he was just standing there. And so I kind of slip out of bed. And before I slipped out of bed, I told him, I said, “I’m not taking her, because I don’t want to wake her up because she hasn’t been asleep very long,” so I slip out of bed.
Q…..What’s Kelsey wearing?
A…..She’s wearing a black Sparks America T-shirt. That’s it.
Q…..That’s it? Because I know at the hospital I took photographs and she has a Pull-Up on.
A…..I know.
Q…..Okay. So you didn’t put a Pull-Up on her. That had to be something that somebody else put on her?
A….And I’d even asked about it.
Q…..So whenever you left at a quarter till three to go get your daughter, somewhere roughly, I guess, in that time frame, no one else was at the house? That’s what you’ve told me before. Is that still—
A…..Yeah.
Q…..So your daughter is exclusively left with Mike. And then now you’re saying that she has this white Sparks T-shirt on and nothing underneath.
A…..Right.
Q…..No underwear or no whatever.
A…..No, because I think I told you the time before she had—you know, she came in from outside, “I had an accident.” Okay. No big deal. I just take them off.
Q…..And you say she peed?
A…..Yeah.
Q…..The peeing thing with the panties on.
A…..Right. And so I just left her in just her T-shirt. No big deal. It’s just me and her.
Q…..Is that pretty common? I mean, would you do that sometimes?
A…..Yeah. I just let her air out.
Q…..You’re not scared that she might pee again or something?
A…..No.
Q…..Is that because she’s far enough along in the potty training deal thing that she will tell you—
A…..That was how I—that was how I trained her at some point a long time ago, because if she didn’t have anything on, she would tell me she had to go. If she had a Pull-Up on, she’d just let it go. And that was long time ago.
Q…..Okay.
A…..And then I—you now, I go get in the truck.
Q…..And what kind of pickup do you all have?
A…..It’s a Ford double cab of some kind with doors.
Q…..Like the four-door truck?
A…..Yeah.
Q…..Is it a dark color? Is it black?
A…..It’s not black. I call it brown, but everybody says it’s not brown.
Q…..Is it dark brown? Light brown?
A…..It’s a funky color. I forgot what they call it. It’s not—I say it’s brown, but everybody says it’s not brown.
Q……Okay. I won’t argue with you.
A…..Sorry.
Q…..It’s a brown of some kind.
A…..Some kind of color.
Q…..So why did he want you—why did he wake you up on October the 11th and make you go get Whitney?
A…..I don’t know.
Q…..Did he make you go or did he insist you went or what was the big deal? You said something about a week ago you-guys had some kind of a controversy, maybe, going on about you going to pick up Whitney or something?
A…..No, it was just—just arguments. And it was just stuff that—arguing just gets on my nerves. There’s no sense in it.
Q…..Well, you need to tell me what we’re arguing about. What were we arguing about that has to do with Whitney?
A…..It was whenever we signed on the house. On the way up there, I don’t remember what we were talking about—oh, something about the newspaper. I was going to—he was looking for, supposedly, and extra job. And—
Q…..Mike’s looking for an extra job?
A…..Yeah, because he was saying he was going to get another job. And so he says—when I pick up the newspaper, he said, “Read me the want ads.” And I said, “Well, just a minute. I’m reading other stuff.” And he said, “Turn the radio back up.” Well, then, whenever I got done reading everything, I turned the radio down. And you know, he turns it back up. And I said, “Do you not want me to read these to you?” And he goes like, “Whatever,” and I don’t remember what all he said. And then he said, “I hate you sometimes.”
Q…..And this was about a week before the 11th of October.
A…..And I was like, “Okay, Well, you, I’m pregnant anyways,” you know. And I just couldn’t believe he said that. And, you know, so I cried, I think, the rest of the way or wanted to cry the rest of the way up there. And, you know, Kelsey’s behind me in the car seat. And then I don’t think I talked to him the rest of that day.
And then one day when Bubby was there that week—you know, he always said he wanted me to treat the kids the same. Well, at one point me and Kelsey and Bubby are in our bedroom and sitting on the bed. And we’re all putting lotion on and stuff. And he comes in there and takes Bubby and says, “Come on, Bubby. They don’t want you in here.” I said, “Whatever are you doing? We’re putting lotion on.” And he just ignored me and went in there. And that kind of upset me.
Q…..Well, what does got to do with why you had to go get Whitney?
A…..Because we were just fussing all the time, like that last week. So that’s why I—to save a fuss.
Q…..Okay. So the week before, you and him seemed to be getting into some little minor arguments.
A…..Right.
Q…..Okay.
A…..And so just to save it, I just go.
Q…..So did you have a feeling, then, that he wanted you to go get Whitney on this day, I mean, that it was an issue or would be an issue if you didn’t do it?
A…..I don’t think so, because—
Q…..Then why did you go?
A…..Just to save a fuss.
Q…..Okay.
A…..Because, then, you know—then it might have been a thing where he had to work all day in and “you can’t get up and go get Whitney.” You know, because, you know, I didn’t do anything all day.
Q…..You’re a housewife.
A…..Right.
Q…..Okay. So that’s why you picked up Whitney, then.
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..It wasn’t any—any other reason for that that you know of?
A…..(The witness shook her head.)
Q…..Okay. So how did he act when he came home and he woke you up that day? Was he in good mood? Was he in a bad mood? Could you tell anything like that on the way he was acting?
A…..He just seemed to be calm and was just kind normal.
Q…..Was he okay? Was he expecting anybody to come over to the house?
A…..I don’t know if he was expecting him to come over, but he did tell me that he had sold the tires. He told me at some point, I don’t know when, that he had sold these tires to Mike Taber. And I don’t know if he was coming, if he knew he was coming. He didn’t mention that he knew he was coming, to me.
Q…..But he did end up coming that day.
A…..Right. Yeah, because I seen him up there.
Q…..So when you left—or what time do you think it was you left?
A…..About 2:45.
Q…..So as soon as he wakes you up, you’re pretty much gone.
A…..Uh-huh. I just slipped on my black flip-flops.
Q…..And then you walk out or whatever?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Is Kelsey breathing at that point? Is she alive?
A…..Yes. Because whenever I slipped out, you know, I stayed there and watched her for a minute, because sometimes whenever I get up, her little eyes will bug open.
Q….Okay.
A…..So, you know, I stand there and I watch her for a minute. And so she’s okay and she stays asleep, so—and I leave.
Q…..Okay. And just the way I am, I’ve got to ask a couple of questions. Did you hit her? Did you cause—
A…..No.
Q…..—anything to—
A…..No.
Q…,.—cause the injury that she had—
A….No.
Q…..Okay. Did you ever stick anything in her rectum or anything?
A…..No, no.
Q…..Okay. Because, I mean, those are injuries, two separate injuries she had. So we know from the time that the CHBS lady is there, Mrs. Bonner, until you go up and you fall asleep and then you leave at a quarter till three, your daughter is alive. She’s fine. Is that what you’re telling me?
Okay. and just the way I am, I’ve got to ask a couple of questions. Did you hit her? Did you cause—
A…..No.
Q…..—anything to—
A…..No.
Q…..cause the injury that she had—
A…..No.
Q…..—to her stomach?
A…..No.
Q…..Okay. Did you ever stick anything in her rectum or anything?
A…..No, no.
Q…..Okay. Because, I mean, those are injuries, two separate injuries she had. So we know from the time that the CHBS lady is there, Mrs. Bonner, until you go up and you fall asleep and then you leave at a quarter till three, your daughter is alive. She’s fine. Is that what you’re telling me?
A…..That’s what I’ve told you over and over.
Q…..You have told me that over and over.
A…..She was fine.
Q…..You don’t know of any other—any way those injuries could have occurred?
A…..No.
Q…..So then the logical thing to think, then, if what you’re saying is correct, then the only other person that had an opportunity to do those things to your daughter was your husband Michael. Is that not true?
A…..That is completely true.
Q…..Because I know that he called 911 about 3:09.
A…..Un-huh.
Q…..So from the closest time, you’re saying a quarter till to that point, she quits breathing because that was the 911 call, okay. And, you know, I just—I’m just trying to guess what in the world could have she done that would upset him that much—
A…..I have asked myself and everybody the same question.
Q…..—that either you didn’t see or couldn’t tell of anything prior. Because you would really think that with all the little things that’s happened along the way with the collarbone, the bruises, and the legs—did you do any of those injuries to your daughter?
A…..No.
Q…..Did you—
A…..No.
Q…..--ever grab her by the face and—
A…..No.
Q…..—hurt her in any way?
A…..No.
Q…..Okay. Then that really kind of makes me, as an investigator, have to look at maybe Mike as being somebody—or maybe even somebody else. I don’t know, but the focus is really kind of looking at Mike, because, you know, we really don’t know that much about Mike. I mean, he’s not telling us as far as any of those things that he could have done or did do, you know.
A…..Well, I have a questions, or I have a few. And I don’t know if you can answer them for me. Has the answer on the Pull-Up came out yet?
Q…..I didn’t know until talking to you and to Steve anything about the Pull-Up.
A…..Because whenever I pulled up and somebody handed her to an EMT or they handed her to somebody, I noticed it like that.
Q…..And was that maybe from when she went from the Meeker first responders ambulance to the Prague ambulance? Was it about that time frame?
A…..I don’t know. I don’t know, because I thought—it was right when they were putting her—right before they put her in, because I tried to get in there with her. And I don’t know—
Q…..Is that the same ambulance that you rode in with?
A…..Yeah.
Q…..Okay. That would be the Prague ambulance, then.
A…..Okay, yeah, sorry. But I noticed it, I mean, as soon as I was—
Q…..Why didn’t you tell me that when I was talking to you the last two times?
A…..I thought I did tell you the last time.
Q…..Uh-uh.
A…..Okay. I don’t know.
Q…..But, obviously, you were under a little bit of pressure and stress the 1st time we talked, because I pretty much accused you of killing your daughter, if you recall.
A…..Yes, you did. Yeah, I recall.
Q…..But you have to look at it from my point of view—
A…..I know you was just—
Q…..—that either you or your husband were the last two people that was with her.
A…..I know.
Q…..And obviously he’s the last person that was with her when she died, because he’s the one that called the 911 thing. So I have to try to figure out, you know, is she breathing when you leave or are the injuries that occurred when she was in your care or whenever Mike was in her care, you know.
A…..Well, some other questions I have is—
Q…..And it’s not always easy to get to the bottom of that part, you know, without somebody stepping up and saying, “Yeah, I take responsibility. This is what I done,” you know.
A…..Well, I have a question. Do you think he’s going to do that?
Q…..Who?
A…..Mike.
Q…..Is he going to do that.
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q…..I would say no.
A…..Because, I mean, I—
Q…..He wanted—remember the last time we were here talking? Was that like last week, last Thursday or something? I think he wanted a lawyer or something. You remember that? So he never—he never gave us that information.
A…..Because I have a few things I would love to say to him. But I have, like—because at one point, I did ask him about that Pull-Up.
Q…..Now, was this at the house or at the hospital?
A…..It was—it might have been at the hospital.
Q…..Okay.
A…..I’m not sure. It could have been at the house. I don’t know. But I asked him, I said, “When did she get that Pull-Up on?” And he said, “Well,” he said, “it was laying on the counter.” And I—whenever I—after I talked to him about this, I told my mom, I said, “There was not a Pull-Up on the counter.” There was two in that main bathroom, you know, off of the living room. And I said, “In that thing, there should be two Pull-Ups in that cupboard.”
Q…..Did you go back and look?
A…..(The witness shook her head.)
Q…..Was there?
A…..There was one.
Q…..Okay.
A…..So I told him, I said, “In the midst of all this of supposedly trying to save my daughter’s life, he goes and gets a Pull-Up and puts on her.” And I asked him, I said, “What was the big deal?” And he goes, “Well, that’s all I need,” he said, “you know, them coming up here and she not having a Pull-Up on.” I said, “I would have told them that I left her like that. No big deal.”
Q…..But he said that was all he needed?
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q…..I mean, that’s all he needed for the ambulance people to come up or somebody and she’s not wearing a Pull-Up?
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q…..I mean, to me, that makes you think that some kind of sexual thing, something inappropriate.
A…..Well, that’s what I told—
Q…..I mean, is that what you’re insinuating?
A…..Yeah. Because, like I told him, I said, “Well, I would have told them that I left her like that. No big deal.” You know, I just—
Q…..But it must have made him uncomfortable, then, if he went to put the diaper on.
A…..Yeah. Because I’ve been thinking this whole mess through. And then, you know, my mom has told me, you know, the things he said when he called her at work. And, you know, she told me all he said was “Kelsey won’t wake up.” And she goes, “Well, what’s wrong with her?” And he goes, “I don’t know.” But he told me—
Q…..Which that was my next question. What did Mike tell you that happened to Kelsey—
A…..He told me—
Q—at the house?
A…..Right.
Q…..The ambulance is already there, and you show up. What does he tell you?
A…..Okay. He told me that when he—he told me that he went to turn the TV on and he heard her grunt.
Q…..Okay. What TV? You’ve got one in the bedroom. Are we talking about the living room?
A…..In the living room.
Q…..Okay.
A….And he heard Kelsey grunt. And he said—so he goes in there to check on her and he said—he goes, “And she wasn’t stiff like she usually is when she has a seizure,” or he said, “She was blue and she wasn’t stiff like she usually is when she has a seizure.” And so at this point, you know, I’m thinking, Okay, then, what the heck was the rush to—you know, calling Mom for? You know. But then from what some—you know on some affidavit or something on Channel 5, his interview states that she was stiff and her arms were to the side.
Q…..Okay. But he’s telling you that she’s not stiff?
A…..Right. And this thing where—
Q…..And she’s blue. Kind of what I’m gathering by talking to some of the medical folks, when you’re blue, you have a lack of oxygen. And usually by the time you turn blue, you’ve had a lot of lack of oxygen. You’re probably dead.
A…..And then the other part that I—
Q…..Did he tell you if he gave her CPR or anything?
A…..He told me he did.
Q…..He told you that he did?
A…..He told me he did—he didn’t know how to do it properly or something.
Q…..Okay. He told you that when you drove up at the house and the ambulance is there?
A…..Now, I didn’t talk to him at the—at the house when I pulled up.
Q…..Okay. That’s when I was talking about. You didn’t talk to him there?
A…..No.
Q…..Okay. Is it at the hospital, then?
A…..I barely even talked to him at the hospital.
Q…..Okay. Well, then, when did he actually give you the story of what happened?
A….I’m thinking—let’s see. We left—we left, we went out to the house with you-all—
Q…..Tuesday night.
A…..Right. It was somewhere after then.
Q…..So after then to Wednesday? Because you-guys came up and talked to us that next Thursday, and you-guys didn’t know officially it was a homicide—
A….Right.
Q…..—and what happened until that Thursday.
A…..Right. And then after that, when I wasn’t around him anymore.
Q…..Okay. So from Tuesday night to Wednesday morning, then he’s telling you that he did give CPR and that when he went in there and checked on her, he heard a grunt and she wasn’t stiff, and you’re telling me that’s because the times before she had a seizure, she was stiff?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Okay. So the, obviously, he knows there’s something different this time. Is that what you’re telling me?
A…..I think so.
Q…..Or, basically, that’s what he told you?
A…..That’s what he told me, yeah.
Q…..Okay.
A…..And then another thing that I read Mike Taber said that—
Q…..Hey, let’s don’t—what you read—we want to know what you know.
A…..Okay.
Q….Anything as far as what you read, I did those interview. I know what those are.
A…..Okay.
Q…..We want to focus on what you know firsthand, not what somebody tells you. I mean, that’s kind of the important thing here.
A….Okay.
Q…..So what else did he tell you about the incident with Kelsey?
A…..He said he tried—no, he didn’t tell me that.
Q…..But he did tell you that he did CPR on her?
A….That’s what he said.
Q…..Did he go into any detail on how he did it and what he did?
A…..He just said he hoped he didn’t hurt her.
Q…..He said he hoped he didn’t hurt her. Okay. Did he say anything about he gave her breaths? Did he give her chest compressions?
A…..He said he was breathing for her.
Q…..He was breathing for her. Did he say anything about chest compressions?
A….I think—I mean, unless I’m just thinking that I just automatically thought that because he said something about CPR.
Q…..Because CPR might just be breaths. It may not be chest compressions.
A…..Right.
Q…..Did he specifically say—
A…..I don’t think he said anything about chest compressions.
Q…..He just worded it, “I gave her CPR”?
A…..Right.
Q…..And he hoped that he didn’t hurt her.
A….Right. And I think that he breathed for her or something.
Q…..The breathing for her.
A…..Because he said, “For a minute, she “—he said, “She stiffened up for a minute,” whatever that means.
Q…..Did he say where he gave her CPR at?
A…..He said—I think he said on the –in the island in the kitchen on the bar.
Q…..Okay. So he put her on the bar inside the kitchen on the island?
A…..That’s what he told me.
Q…..And did some CPR?
A…..That’s what he told me.
Q…..Okay. Anything else about that? Did he continue until anybody shows up or did he stop? Did he—
A…..That’s what I was—that’s what I read, so I don’t know.
Q…..What did you read?
A…..From what I read, he was holding her in his right arm on the phone.
Q…..Okay. But what did he tell you?
A…..He didn’t tell me anything about any of that.
Q…..He just told you that he gave her some CPR on the island.
A…..And he said—he said the only time he got anything out of her was when he said, “Mommy and Grandma’s coming.”
Q…..He told her that?
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q…..Or she said, “Mommy and Grandma’s coming”?
A…..No, he said that the only time he got any response out of her was when he would say, “Mommy and Grandma’s coming.”
Q…..So then, basically, what’s his explanation of what happened to your daughter? What did he tell you?
A…..All he said is she had a seizure. She had a seizure and he tried to help her.
Q…..And that’s it?
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q….Okay. But then we have the medical examiner’s office saying that that’s not what caused the injury, that we have two separate injuries. So then that means, then, that your husband’s lying.
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..I mean, if you had nothing to do with it or were involved in it, then that means he’s involved in it.
A…..Okay.
Q…..Because I think I told you on that Thursday, the last time we had talked on the interview, that, you know, one of you two had to have killed Kelsey, caused the death. I mean, and I still believe that to this minute.
A…..I wouldn’t hurt my daughter. There’s no way.
Q…..You know, that somebody’s responsible for it.
A…..What can a child do for someone to do this?
Q…..I don’t know. That’s news to me.
A…..I mean, I want that answer given to me.
Q…..Have you talked to Mike? Well, let’s just kind of stick on the format here. So that was Tuesday and Wednesday, late Tuesday night or early Wednesday that he gave you the information on what he did to try to revive her, basically. Did he ever say anything else about that?
A…..Not directly to me.
Q…..Okay. Did he say something to somebody else?
A…..My little sister.
Q…..Okay. Did he tell her something?
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q…..Which sister is this?
A…..This is Rachelle.
Q…..How do you spell Rachelle?
A…..R-a-c-h-e-l-l-e.
Q…..What’s her last name?
A…..Smith.
Q…..How do I get a hold of her? Is there a phone? Can she talk to me?
A…..I think everybody is more than happy to talk.
Q…..Okay.
A…..Some of them are itching.
Q…..Okay. What’s the phone number for her?
A…..8**-****
Q…..Is this a cell number?
A…..No, it’s her boyfriend’s parents’ house.
Q…..Okay.
A…..That’s how I get a hold of her.
Q…..Janet is the other one? What is Janet’s last name?
A…..Gragg, G-r-a-g-g
Q....Does she have a phone?
A…..Her cell phone is 8**-****.
Q…..Okay. So what did he tell Rachelle?
A…..That—well, it goes deeper than that. Somebody said something about he said he did laundry and cleaned the kitchen like right after I left or something, which that’s not true, because the kitchen wasn’t dirty. And second of all, whenever we were there this last Saturday, you know, cleaning that house out, the clothes that I had put in there whenever I did laundry that weekend or whatever, they were still in the washer and they were still in the dryer.
Q…..So the clothes that were in the washer and dryer were clothes that you had put in?
A…..(The witness nodded her head.) and he told—you know, Rachelle was like, “I need to rewash these jeans, because,” she goes, “they’re starting to smell moldy.” And he said—and she said, “They’ve probably been in there since Tuesday.” And he said, “Yeah, or before then.” And I said, “Rachelle, why didn’t you tell me this?”
Q…..Okay, Well, you didn’t even know that information.
A…..Right.
Q…..If he said laundry, you read it in the paper, apparently.
A…..Yeah.
Q…..So did he tell her anything specifically?
A…..Not that she can remember, because I’ve—
Q…..So you’re just bringing Rachelle up from the fact that he mentioned something—acknowledging with her that he hadn’t done laundry.
A…..Right. And there was something else.
Q…..Which basically means that whenever he told one of the agents what he had done that night, he was lying. Is that kind of what you’re saying is the important fact of that?
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q…..I agree with you. That’s important.
A…..And there was another thing.
Q…..Has Mike ever lied to you that you know of?
A…..That I know of? I never caught him in one, I don’t think.
Q…..But, obviously, killing somebody is a major thing. I mean, it would definitely be a major thing.
A…..Yeah.
Q…..And what was the other thing you was just getting ready to say?
A…..Whenever we—because my sister was still staying at the house when I was with my mom. Mike was there. And Rachelle said she was asleep and on the couch or something. Well, she wakes up when Mike sits in his chair. And Rachelle woke up and he goes. “Oh, now you wake up.”
And she just said, “What are you talking about?” And he said, “Well, somebody’s rang the doorbell twice, and I fired off the shotgun, because somebody’s been up here rattling doors.” And Rachelle said, “To me, that seemed kind of funny that I would wake up to him just sitting down in his chair but I didn’t wake up to the front door, the doorbell, or a shotgun or anything like that.”
Q…..Now, when was this that he made those comments to her?
A…..It was after—it was after the 11th.
Q…..Okay. Was it before we did our interview up here or after?
A…..It was after.
Q…..Okay. So then after Thursday?
A…..I think so, yeah.
Q…..Okay.
A…..Because when I told my sister Janet about that, she told me, she said, “I don’t believe that.” She said, “He’s still trying to keep the attention off of him.”
Q…..Do you remember him calling? Were you aware that anybody from the ME’s office had called your house, probably that—let’s see, Kelsey died on the 11th, Tuesday—probably that Wednesday morning? Were you aware that anybody might have called?
A…..I know they called, like, later that afternoon or something and said that they wouldn’t be done with her or something.
Q…..Okay. Do you know if Mike ever called them at the ME’s office?
A…..He might have. I think he did.
Q…..Did he tell you why he was going to call or did you ask him to call or did he call on his own?
A…..I think before he called, maybe before, because I was wondering when they were supposed to call. And he told me that the woman said not to call them, that they would call us. And I was like, “Okay.”
Q…..He called them about five times that day.
A…..Oh, really?
Q…..You weren’t aware of the calls, then?
A…..I think I might have—he might have called once that I know of.
Q…..Uh-huh.
A…..Just to see, because I think that was the day—was the day after she passed away.
Q…..Yeah.
A…..Because I was going to go to the—because I needed to go to the city hall for her lot.
Q…..Burial?
A…..Right.
Q….Cemetery lot, I guess?
.
A….Yeah. and so I needed to go there, and so I might have had him to call before we left or something.
Q…..And that’s to coordinate when you would get Kelsey back for the funeral?
A…..Right.
Q…..But then the other times that he called you’re not aware of?
A…..I didn’t know he called five times. And I know—I think somebody left—I think I heard a message from—was it a lady? I think it might have been a lady, I’m not sure. She had left a message on the answering machine that she had called. I never—I never called and talked to the, I don’t think.
Q…..Well, you remember back at the hospital on the 11th whenever Kelsey was taken to Prague? Now, didn’t Mike pass out or something, faint?
A…..Supposedly, which—
Q…..Is that normal for him? Does he usually get that stressed out about things?
A…..I’ve never seen it. And I didn’t—even then, like I said, you know, I didn’t really talk to him at the hospital. I think the only people I talked to was my sisters and my mom, but I didn’t really talk to him then.
Q…..Did you think that was kind of odd that he was that stressed out, or was that normal for him?
A…..I didn’t believe him in the first place.
Q…..You didn’t believe he passed out?
A…..Because whenever I—because I heard something, and I go over there and his eyes are fluttering whenever I went over there and looked, so I just hollered and told somebody he had passed out, and they did whatever they did.
Q…..Uh-huh.
A…..And then I went in there—
Q…..What do you think he was so stressed out about? Do you think it was about losing Kelsey or do you think maybe he was involved in what happened to Kelsey?
A…..I’m thinking that his conscience was getting to him.
Q…..Because you remember—has he had any medical problems that you’re aware of?
A…..I think him to the doctor one time when he said he was having some chest pains or something.
Q…..When was that?
A….It was right after we got married.
Q…..So it was sometime in April, probably, or May.
A…..Because we took him to the emergency room, so there should be documents.
Q…..What hospital?
A…..The Shawnee Unity North.
Q…..Okay. Did they treat him for anything? Did he actually have an ailment?
A…..They didn’t find anything?
Q…..so what test did they do? Do you know?
A…..So what test did they do? Do you know?
Q…..The did—
A…..An EKG?
Q…..An EEG. And he was okay. Was he on medication for—any heart medications or anything like that? Hypertension, high blood pressure? Nothing that you’re aware of?
A…..( The witness shook her head.)
Q…..Because you know when we were up here that Thursday after the 11th, you know, I talked to him and Agent Tanner talked to him and he was really stressed out up here. Did you notice that? Do you remember whenever he came up and told you that you needed to get you a lawyer or something?
A…..Yeah.
Q…..You remember how stressed out—
A…..and he sat right there or something, yeah.
Q…..When I talked to him, he was really stressed out.
A…..Yeah, I noticed.
Q…..We’re pretty nice people up here. We don’t abuse anybody. We’ll get you something to drink or whatever. I mean, we’re not mean to you. We may ask some tough questions, but, you know, it’s not a physical thing. It might be a mental thing. Do you find that unusual for him to do that?
A…..Yeah, because I’ve never seen that.
Q…..You’ve never seen that before in him?
A…..Not that I can remember.
Q…..So, obviously, the—he had some stress on him for coming up here. Is that what your take is on it?
A…..That’s what I—I mean, that’s what I see now, you know. I just don’t think I’ve ever seen him act like that, not to by remembrance.
Q…..I mean, I would think that if you were married to somebody and it wasn’t your biological child, it would hurt to lose it. But I think me personally, if it was your kid, it would really hurt. I mean, just like you were talking about, there’s a little bit of difference between Whitney and Michael Gage. I mean, you look at them a little bit differently than you do Kelsey.
A…..Right.
Q…..You know, I mean, it just seems like it would really be very traumatic to the biological parent versus the stepparent.
A…..Yeah, that’s what I kind of thought and what my older sister said, you know. We can kind of see where I would, you know, maybe pass out. I was just—I was just screaming. But she didn’t—I didn’t understand—I don’t know.
Q…..But if you had a little bit of guilt in you that you did something bad, I mean, that would probably cause some stress, too.
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q…..I mean, you know, it’s a good possibility. But you’ve never seen him get that stressed on anything before?
A…..Not to my knowledge. I don’t think so.
Q…..Did he say anything to you that day after you-guys were leaving?
A…..He did say something at the hospital—
Q…..At the hospital?
A…..—that threw me off.
Q…..You mean back on the 11th when Kelsey was there?
A…..Yeah.
Q…..What was that?
A…..He—he said—he asked me, like—I don’t remember when it was. I don’t know if I had already held Kelsey for my hour and a half or two hours, whatever it was, or if it was before. But he asked me he said, “They’re not going to cut her open, are they?” I said, “What are you talking about?” And I was like—I just kind of—
Q…..And that was back at the hospital?
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q…..Was that before he fainted or after he fainted?
A…..I think it was after.
Q…..It was after he fainted?
A…..I think so.
Q…..He was asking you if during the autopsy if they would cut her open?
A…..Right. And I was just—
Q…..That’s a weird thing to say.
A…..—I was like, “What?” I didn’t even want to—that was not what I wanted to think about right now, I mean, at that time. That was just—I mean, I knew I was—we were going to, because I wanted to know what was wrong with her.
Q…..Did he say why he was wondering that?
A…..No, and I never asked him.
Q…..So he wondered if at the hospital in Prague if they were going to cut her open.
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q…..Does he think she’s still alive at that point, or does he think she’s dead?
A…..I don’t know.
Q…..Well, what did you know at that point?
A…..That’s why I’m trying to go back. I don’t know if it was right before I held her, you know, for my hour and a half or two hours or if it was—
Q…..That’s right. And I didn’t get there until like seven o’clock. But prior to that, apparently you-guys were spending some time with Kelsey?
A…..I sat there and I rocked her for—
Q…..Did Mike hold her?
A…..Yeah, he did for like three seconds, maybe five, because—
Q…..Who all is present at that time?
A…..I know the preacher was in there.
Q…..Who is your preacher?
A…..Brother Pearcy.
Q…..What’s his first name? Do you know? What church is it?
A…..Assembly of God.
Q…..Down in Meeker?
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q…..Okay.
A…..He was in there. Glenn Pettit was in there.
Q…..Who’s Glenn Pettit?
A…..He’s my great aunt—I guess she’s my great aunt—my great aunt’s husband.
Q…..Okay.
A…..And they were just in there for me. But at one point, he—Karen or Brad White asked him. “Do you want to hold her?” or he said, “Can I hold her?” I don’t really remember. Anyway, I let him and he didn’t hold her that long, so I just—scooped her up and took her back and sat back down and continued to rock her.
Q…..Was he crying or anything?
A…..He seemed to be, but, you know, I like I said, I was—I wasn’t really focused on anybody.
Q….I imagine not.
A…..And, you know, I mean, I kind of—I kind of looked at her, and I noticed it looked like she had something on her shirt, you know, because I had asked somebody if she had thrown up later. And I just—I didn’t see anything you know.
Q….Do you think Mike was capable of hurting Kelsey?
A…..From what I thought and what I thought I married, no.
Q…..Okay. Because you’ve never seen anything, any abusiveness?
A…..Right. And now I think, what does an abusive person look like? What does, you know, a child molester look like?
Q…..Were you capable of hurting Kelsey?
A…..No.
Q…..You know, after you talked to us on that Thursday here at the OSBI office, now, did you go back home to Meeker or did you go to your mom’s house?
A…..When we left here, we went to my mom’s and then we took—
Q…..Who’s “we”? Everybody?
A…..Yeah. There was all kinds of—
Q…..You, Mike, and Gayla?
A…..And Mom. And then my brother was at the house and my sister and then Janet showed up. I can’t remember if Sierra was there or not.
Q…..Did Mike go in the house?
A…..Uh-huh. And all the way home, you know, he kept—well, on the way out there, he said, “You know I didn’t do this.” And I said, “I never said that. What do you—“You know, I didn’t want to talk anymore, because I’m trying to grasp what I—
Q…..But deep down you’re thinking he did it, though, aren’t you?
A…..Yeah.
Q…..Because like I told you before you left that day, one of the two of you had to have killed her.
A…..Right. And I’m sitting there, you know—I wanted to go—you know, like Mom said, “You can ride with me or, you know, do whatever you think you need to do.” And so I go ahead and I drive. And he kept trying to talk to me and I was like, “I don’t want to talk. Just be quiet, I don’t want to talk.”
Q…..Did he ask you—did he say that he did do it—
A…..No.
Q…..—at that point?
A…..And I wish he would. But he had—like, he just kept saying, “You know I couldn’t hurt her.” And I was, like, “Just stop talking.” I didn’t want to talk anymore. I had talked all day. And I—plus, I had all this stuff going in my head. So then when we get home, you know, I think my brother asked me, “Well, what did they say?” And I told him. Bubba didn’t have much reaction, and that’s when I knew he was—
Q…..Say that again.
A…..Bubba didn’t have too much reaction.
Q…..Who’s Bubba?
A…..Bubba is Curtis.
Q…..Okay. Your brother Curtis?
A.….I just call him—I’ve always called him Bubba.
Q…..Okay.
A…..But he didn’t have much of a reaction, which means he was mad. And me and Mom and Rachelle and Miste and, I think Merissa and Sierra and Mike took Kelsey’s clothes to the funeral home. I sat up front with my mom and he sat in the back.
Q…..That night? Thursday night?
A…..(The witness nodded her head.) Nothing was ever said, and I wanted to just be with my mom, because—I mean, I –I don’t know. And so then after we do what I needed to do, we go back home and I just said, “I’m going to Shawnee with my mom.” That’s what I told everybody, so I just got in the car and I leave. And we left and that was that.
Q…..So you haven’t been back to the other house where Mike was?
A…..Well, I went back, I think, to get some clothes, because I didn’t have anything except what I was wearing.
Q…..What day was that?
A…..I don’t know. It probably was the next day.
Q…..Because that next Thursday was when he was arrested.
A…..Right. And—yeah—
Q…..Which would have been last Thursday, since this is Thursday today.
A…..Okay. Yeah, I was—I was with my mom when that happened. And—
Q…..Has he contacted you since he’s been in jail?
A…..No, and I don’t want him to. Oh, and the last thing I think it was, because he would call the house and I—you know, he called like maybe—trying to talk to me. And I was, “I don’t want to talk,” because I talked to my sister. And then he got on the phone and he said, “Well, I just want you to know amongst all of this, daughter is in a foster home.”
Q…..Now, this is while you were at your mom’s house, that week after we had talked to you after the funeral?
A…..Right, because I was talking to my sister. And he just gets on the phone and he just pops off.
Q…..So your sister Rachelle is staying at the house?
A…..For a couple of days, yeah.
Q…..With him?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Was she staying with you-guys at that point?
A…..No.
Q…..Was that unusual?
A….I’ve been up here.
Q…..Okay. Why would your sister be staying with him?
A…..Because she—I really don’t know. You’d have to ask her.
Q…..Okay.
A….I just know she was—
Q…..Is that odd or is it just odd to me?
A…..Rachelle just does what Rachelle has to do.
Q…..Okay.
A…..Rachelle is—
Q…..Okay. I mean, it just seems kind of odd to me that you don’t want to stay at the house because you think the guy might be responsible for your daughter but, yet, your sister is there.
A…..I didn’t—
Q…..Does she not know at that point?
A…..I don’t think I told her anything that was even said, because I just—I don’t think I ever told her.
Q…..Okay.
A…..Any, he just popped off. And that was the last—this is the last time, you know, he ever even tried to get on the phone after I talked to my sister. He just said, “I just want you to know that through all of this, my daughter is in a foster home.” I hung up because I’m sitting there thinking, Okay. Let me tell you where my daughter is at. And right then I was like—
Q…..Has his lawyer contacted you for anything?
A…..No.
Q…..You haven’t talked to anybody like that? I was talking to Steve earlier before our long, lengthy interview that we’ve had. And he kind of gave me some dates and times of some stuff. And you can just—it would probably be faster if you just agree or disagree if it’s going to be accurate information. March 21st of ’05 there was a cook out and Michael was alone with Kelsey. Somewhere you-guys had a cookout. Does that ring a bell?
A…..At my house?
Q…..Did you have a conference with your lawyer prior to this meeting—
A…..Right.
Q…..—trying to distinguish some times and dates that Michael might have been with Kelsey alone or whatever? Because we’re trying to figure out some of these bruises or injuries, that if they didn’t come from you and they came from Michael, when could it have happened.
A…..Right.
Q…..Because I had it March the 30th about Kelsey’s hair was falling out and you took her to the doctor and DHS was notified about it. Does that sound right?
A…..Yeah.
Q…..So on the 21st, there also was a nose injury?
A…..Yeah. That’s when she fell in my kitchen at the apartment. She was turned around to see if I was coming.
Q…..But you witnessed that?
A…..Uh-huh. And I wrote it down.
Q…..Okay. That was at the apartment. And then April 2nd, Wendell Kelly’s house, Kelsey fell through a screen door?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..You saw that?
A…..Yes.
Q…..And that did occur?
A…..Yeah.
Q…..And then you noticed some bruises on Kelsey’s thigh and side on the next day, which would have been April the 3rd.
A…..Yeah, she had—Was that when she had something—the bruise below her rib cage? Yeah, I just thought it came from that.
Q…..So you saw her fall down from that. And then April the 14th is going to be when Kelsey went to the zoo. And your sister-in-law, Miste Smith, was with your cousins Merissa and Sierra?
A…..Sierra.
Q…..And you took her—took Kelsey to the ER for the ankle?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..And then the next day would be the 15th of April, and Kelsey spent the night with Miste.
A…..A little sleepover, yeah.
Q…..A sleepover. And then April 15th through April the 18th, Raye and Mike are together and you’re going to get married on April the 18th of “05.
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..So the 15th through the 18th, you-guys are together. And we may have touched some of this earlier, you know, because we talked bout the leg injury and the ankle injury and we talked about the dates, but this way I’ll kind of keep it all straight. And then April the 21st through April the 25th, Mike’s around Kelsey. Mike tells Raye not to pamper Kelsey. Do you remember anything like that? Was there a time that he told you that?
A…..Yeah, he told me, you know, to continue making her walk more than what I wanted her to walk more than what I wanted her to walk.
Q…..And there was a garage sale at the time? Anything significant about that?
A…..She jut mainly, like, sat on my lap a lot.
Q…..Okay.
A…..and he ran the garage sale, and I just sat there.
Q…..Well, now, do you think that had something to do with her legs hurting that she was sitting on your lap?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Because it was just a few days prior to that, it’s the ankle. Do you think it’s the leg—the break at this point, or do we not know?
A…..I don’t know.
Q…..And then you had a doctor visit on the 25th with Dr. Koons and DHS is notified and casts are put on the next day, which is April the 26th.
A…..Okay.
Q…..Does that sound right?
A…..That sounds right.
Q…..and then back on the—well, somewhere between the 21st and 25th is when you weren’t at the house and Mike gets her up and has her walking around the chair, and I think we talked about that earlier.
A…..Yeah.
Q…..I have April the 27th written down, but I didn’t write anything down so I don’t remember exactly what that was about.
MR. HUDDLESTON: I’ve got down April the 27th you picked Kelsey up from her grandmother’s.
MS. PORTER: Okay.
MR. HUDDLESTON: And then on the—and—
MR: GARRETT: Which grandmother?
MR. HUDDLESTON: I don’t have it written down.
Q…..Is that going to be Kathie or Mrs. Fowler?
A…..Probably Kathie. But what date is that?
Q…..The 27th.
A…..Yeah. That’s Kathie.
Q…..And then April the 28th Kelsey had a spot on her nose, and Mike said Whitney must have elbowed Kelsey when they had been sleeping.
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q…..Do you remember anything about that?
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q…..Did it look like that to you, or what kind of a nose injury are we talking about?
A…..It was just like a little—
Q…..A little red spot?
A…..Yeah.
Q…..Was it bruised or just—
A…..Yeah, like a little reddish bruise or something.
Q…..Uh-huh.
A….He just said that whatever—when he went in there, that Whitney’s arm was laying on her nose.
Q…..Did you ask Whitney about that? Was Whitney there?
Did she say anything?
A…..I didn’t ask her. DHS talked to her. Pott. County, I think, did at school.
Q…..Okay.
A…..But he said he asked Whitney, he said, “Did you realize what you did to Kelsey’s nose?” and she started crying, saying that she thought I was going to be made at her.
Q…..Okay. Now, then nest day is April the 29th, and this is when Kelsey is at your mother-in-law—ex-mother-in-law Kathie’s house. And Kelsey is freaking out wanting you, and you go over there and she’s okay.
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Does that sound like the right date?
A…..It’s somewhere in there. Yeah, they called Lincoln County DHS to find—mom did because they were looking for me.
Q…..They thought you were at the DHS office or something that day?
A…..Yeah, my mom called up there.
Q…..And then on May the 2nd, Kathie had the casts removed. I think we’ve talked about that before. It was at OU Medical Center and some doctor that—was that when she was supposed to have done the bone density test or whatever and somehow we ended up having the casts removed?
A…..And I couldn’t go because of my grandma’s funeral.
Q…..And I’m still confused about why one doctor said you need casts and then another doctor says you don’t and then a doctor says you need them again.
A…..Well, my mom said—you now, she had her, and she said, “She’s got to get these put back on.” She said, “She’s in pain.”
Q…..And she was having trouble walking or she wouldn’t walk; is that correct?
A…..Right. So Mom just took her back and they put them back on her.
Q…..And then on the 3rd is when you and your mother took Kelsey to the DHS peoeple and talked to them and—Is that right?
A…..Yeah, they took her from Kathie.
Q….Well, when were the casts put back on?
MR. HUDDLESTON: The 4th.
Mr. Garrett: Okay. Okay. So the 4th is the casts were put back on. And that’s Dr. Koons or Bart—
A….Barrett. Dr. Barrett.
Q…..Okay. I’m sorry. I’ll get it out. Okay. And then on the 3rd, okay, we have DHS takes Kelsey into custody and Kelsey was placed with your mother, Gayla Smith?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..And that’s when the first protective order was filed in the DHS?
A…..Uh-huh.
MR. HUDDLESTON: That was the first time tat DHS actually came in themselves to take Kelsey.
A…..Right.
Q…..Well, what happened on that grandparents thing back in January?
A…..That was Kathie—
MR. HUDDLESTON: That was a civil deal where Kathie filed an emergency order. And you can—
MR. GARRETT: So then she had, at that point, custody of Kelsey.
MR. HUDDLESTON: Well, she had—she had custody that day and then went to court, filed emergency guardianship, and then the Court allowed at that poing—to allow her to have her until a hearing was held.
MR. GARRETT: Okay.
MR. HUDDLESTON: But that was not by way of DHS from what I understand.
MR. GARRETT: Okay. It’s a civil action?
MR. HUDDLESTON: A civil action.
Q…..And then apparently the two of you, being Kathie and yourself, had custody of her until this thing in May when your mother ends up getting the guardianship, is that right, and then it’s June that you go back to court and a judge puts Kelsey back in your custody?
A…..Yeah.
Q…..Is that correct? I mean, there’s so much here on a timeline to try and figure out.
A…..I know.
Q…..I mean, you’ve definitely been through a large ordeal. And then we’ve got the June the 6th was the next court date for Kelsey, and that’s when the judge gave Kelsey back to you? Does that sound right, June the 6th of ’05?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..And then on June the 5th, there were some bruises on Kelsey’s thigh that you had seen? And prior to that, June the 3rd, Kelsey’s finger was hurt and you were gone. And Mike said that it happened in a door or something. Do you remember that?
A…..Yeah. Kelsey told me it got slammed in a door.
Q…..Okay. So there’s no reason to disbelieve that.
A…..I don’t think so.
Q…..But she never told you if Mike was hurting her.
A…..No. And that’s what I don’t under—I even thought she would have told me. My mom said she thought she would have told her.
Q…..I mean, that’s just kind of surprising, but I don’t know. I mean, there’s people that’s had a lot of bad things happen to them when they were kids and they never tell it until they’re adults, so I don’t know. I don’t know why. August the 5th, Ashley which would be Briggs, filed visitations for Kelsey and August the 20th for a visit, but you-guys had a car wreck on August the 19th?
A…..I believe that’s right.
Q…..Does that sound close to the date?
A…..Yeah, it’s somewhere in there.
Q…..And prior to that wreck, I think Mike had told you that Kelsey had a seizure. That probably would have been the first seizure, but you weren’t seeing it.
A…..That’s the one I saw.
MR. HUDDLESTON: No.
MS. PORTER: Is that not right?
MR. GARRETT: Prior to the wreck?
MR. HUDDLESTON: I think you told me that the one that you saw happened after the wreck.
MS. PORTER: Yeah.
MR. HUDDLESTON: And then—because after the wreck, you took—you took her to the doctor on the 22nd that following Monday, to Dr. Koons.
MS. PORTER: Right. I saw the one after the wreck.
MR. HUDDLESTON: Right.
MR. HUDDLESTON: Right.
MR. HUDDLESTON: And the one that Mike—you said that Mike told you about a seizure prior to that, but you never saw it.
MS. PORTER: Right. Because I only saw one.
Q…..And then August the 11th, Kelsey had a knot on the back of her head, like a little egg shape or something.
A…..Yeah, a goose egg.
Q…..And did Mike give you an excuse for what happened to her?
A…..(The witness shook her head.)
Q…..What was that?
A…..He said she was standing on the back of the couch, kind of like in the—because there’s a big window right there. And he said she was leaned over trying to grab the cords hanging. And then whenever—I think he said something to her. And when she—when he did, he said it startled her and she fell back and hit the windowsill.
Q…..I wonder what he would have said that would have startled her.
A…..I don’t know what he said.
Q…..And that’s like a blind cord?
A…..Yeah.
Q…..Okay. August the 19th or the 20th, you saw what you thought was Kelsey having a seizure on August the 19th?
A…..Somewhere around in there.
Q…..So that’s going to be the first time you actually saw one?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..You’ve only seen one?
A…..And the thing I saw, from what I know, that’s what it was.
Q…..The 19th or the 20th. So is that going to be after the wreck?
A…..Yeah. It was after the wreck.
Q…..But Mike told you about a seizure that occurred before the wreck. Does that sound right?
A…..Uh-huh. Because I’ve thought about this, and he told me that he was seeing seizures. And what I kind of thought, was he was just over exaggerating a night terror, you know, like when she would wake up kind of scared. That’s what I thought. It was just kind of—it was over exaggerated.
Q…..Did she ever talk in her sleep or anything?
A…..My mom has witnessed that. When Mom stayed with us one evening, Kelsey slept with Mom.
Q…..Because you mentioned that, because I’ve seen my son do that, and it is kind of scary, you know. You’re sitting there and you’re going, “What’s going?” you know. So I’m just wondering if maybe that’s—
A…..Yeah, Mom said she was kind of whining, you know, and not really awake but just kind of whining. I don’t know. Mom’s seen it. I never heard it.
Q…..And you also, I guess, on the 22nd of August after the car wreck, you-guys take Kelsey in to get checked out with Dr. Koons, and that’s when you saw the seizure.
A…..Yeah, that’s when I mentioned it to Dr. Koons, I think.
Q…..Or you thought you saw what was possibly a seizure.
A…..Right.
Q…..And she ordered the blood work, the CAT scan.
A…..Yeah, because she said under normal circumstances she wouldn’t have seen me that quick, but under the circumstances, she got her in.
Q…..And all the blood work comes back okay, the CAT scan comes back normal, because I think you told me that the other day. September the 13th, Kelsey goes to OU Medical Center for blood work. That’s normal. And then there’s an EEG scan that was ordered for November the 14th that we didn’t get to make. And then we have a date, August 27th, ’05, Ashley Briggs visits Kelsey, and that was ordered by the Court.
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Does that sound like the right date?
A…..It was in August.
Q…..and then I’ve got something here on Monday, October the 10th, Mike said Kelsey fell down the stairs. That’s probably something we’ve already talked about too.
A…..Yeah, we did .
Q…..Because I think we did talk about—and then you—I think you already said something, but I wrote it down, that Mike’s house there in Shawnee was getting foreclosed.
A…..That, I didn’t—
Q…..Did that make you think he was having some financial problems?
A…..Obviously.
Q…..Were you scared of the financial problems?
A…..(The witness shook her head.)
Q…..Did you have any idea what went on at the business where he works?
A…..No. The only thing I knew of is one time he said something about numbers were close or something, and he was kind of stressed out about that.
Q…..Say that again.
A…..The numbers were kind of close at work, and he was kind of stressed.
Q…..You’re talking about financial numbers?
A….Yeah. But he didn’t really talk to me about that stuff.
Q…..He never talked to you about work stuff?
A…..Not stuff like that.
Q…..You weren’t curious?
A…..I didn’t really ask.
Q…..So what is that? Is it Southwest Industries?
A…..Midwest.
Q…..Midwest Industries?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..The make magnets?
A….Uh-huh.
Q…..For what?
A…..He says magnets are in everything, like computers and radios, which whenever I—I didn’t know that for a long time. I just thought it was stuff that you stick on the refrigerator. I’m kind of dingy.
Q….Okay. So business may not be that good, but you don’t know if it is or not. Could you tell if he’s been more stressed that usual?
A…..Whenever he had—the last time when he said something about the numbers being kind of close, he did talk to, I think, some guys from work about it.
Q…..Because you said earlier that, you know, he was wanting you to read something in the wanted papers where he was looking for a job.
A…..Yeah, because we just bought Mom’s house.
Q…..You own a company. Why do you go look for a job when you’ve got a company and you’ve got 30 something employees working for you? I mean, that doesn’t make any sense. Did that not maybe turn a light on?
A…..But I never thought we was going to—that that other house got foreclosed on. That just never—and I asked Mom, I said, “What does that mean?” And she said, “You were fixing to be on the street.” And I was like, “Well, that’s great.”
Q…..Well, he got a loan to buy your mom’s house, right, or is she carrying it?
A…..That’s in my name.
Q…..Huh?
A…..That’s in my name.
Q…..Okay, So—
A…..But we’re going to sell it. We’re going to see the truck and –
Q…..How does a housewife get a loan?
A…..He did it somehow through his work.
Q…..Okay. You see what I’m saying?
A…..Yeah, I see. I mean, I’m getting the gist of all of this now, because that’s what I’m saying. If I didn’t even know that he wasn’t—or we weren’t making this house payment in Shawnee and it was fixing to be foreclosed on and me and my daughter are fixing to be on the street, what else do I not know?
Q…..What bank did you-guys get the loan through? There in Meeker somewhere or Shawnee?
A…..No, some lady he worked with.
Q…..Some lady’s carrying the note?
A…..Well—
Q…..I mean, usually banks loan money or people carry notes.
A…..Well, somebody he had done work with from his previous houses, like house in Shawnee.
Q…..So it’s a banker, we’re assuming, or is it an individual?
A…..Mortgage.
Q…..Some mortgage company?
A…..Yeah.
Q…..And that’s how you were able to finance your mom’s house that you-guys are buying?
A…..I think so.
Q…..Normally when people have financial trouble, they’re stressed. I mean, usually in most relationships that’s where you get stress. I mean, it’s finance, usually, is a lot of it. I mean, could you tell that he was more stressed that usual?
A…..I just don’t—he didn’t show it. I mean, if he was, he didn’t really show it, unless us arguing like that week before was part of it.
Q…..Is that when he hit you with the keys?
A…..(The witness nodded her head.) That was—that was when, you know, he told me he hated me sometimes, and all I care about is that “thing in the back.”
Q…..He was calling Kelsey a “think in that back”?
A…..Yeah. Yeah, that made me mad too.
Q…..Yeah.
A…..And I called my mom.
Q…..Okay. So what good does it do to call Mom? Does she kind of help things?
A…..She just—she’s somebody for me to talk to. I talk to her.
Q…..So that’s where you vent, basically?
A…..That’s where I vent, and she give me advice, you know.
Q…..So you and your mother are pretty close, then?
A…..Yeah. That was, you know, one thing he said. He used to make fun of me because I called my mom, you know, 50 times a day.
Q…..What about—Steve mentioned something about that there was times that whenever you and Mike would be watching TV at your house and Kelsey might want to come over and hang out with you-guys, and Mike would get upset and want her to go.
A…..He’d be sitting in his chair and I’d be laying on the couch. Well, she would, you know, want to lay beside me. So that’s what I was telling you. That’s just stuff we did. Anyway, he’d say, “Kelsey, go play”. And I was like, “She’s laying by me.” And he said, “Well, she needs to go be a kid.” Well, she was doing what she wanted to do.
Q…..Was he upset with that, or that was just—
A…..It was just him, you know, telling her to go play.
Q…..Did you think that was odd or no?
A…..I just didn’t see what the big deal was. Just let her lay—and sometimes, you know, I’d just, “Kelsey, you can stay right here.”
Q…..Did you ever get that excited or that stressed him?
A…..Oh, gosh.
Q…..Have you ever pushed him in the wall—
A…..No.
Q…..—at t party, at somebody’s house at a party, maybe in the bathroom?
A…..Yeah, that was when we first started dating.
Q…..Both of you had probably been drinking some that night?
A…..Yeah.
Q…..What happened then?
A…..That’s whenever he was—we had just started dating, and he was—he had paid, like, no attention to me whatsoever and he was flirting with this other girls or whatever, and it just—it escalated.
Q…..And whose house was it at?
A…..That was at Mike and Amy Taylor’s house.
Q…..Okay.
A…..I forgot all about that.
Q…..So you just got mad and pushed him?
A…..Well, under normal circumstances, there’s no way I could have pushed him, like, to make him move, so—you know, and I was asking him what the deal was, you know, “Why are you treating me like this?” when he had never treated me like that before.
Q…..And what was his explanation?
A…..I don’t know that I really go one.
Q….But you pushed him in the wall? Did he lose his balance a little bit?
A…..Uh-huh. Yeah, he lost his balance.
Q…..Did he tear the wall up pretty good?
A…..Uh-huh.
Q…..Because Mike’s a big old boy, He’s—
A…..Yeah. He’s—
Q…..—250 pounds or so.
A…..Yeah.
Q…..Okay. Anything else? Anything else that I’m going to know about later that I might want to know?
A…..I don’t know.
Q…..I mean, I’ll tell you, we’ll be talking with some of the neighbors and stuff, you know, and probably some of your friends.
A…..That’s okay.
Q…..You know, is there anything that they’re going to tell us that’s going to surprise me? It takes a lot to surprise me, believe it or not, but is there anything that’s going to really surprise me?
A…..Not that I—
Q…..Anything that I need to know?
A…..—can think of right now.
Q…..Back on Mike, you said there was no pornographic stuff in the house that you’re aware of.
A…..No that I know of.
Q…..And I’m going back to that injury, the anal injury, you know.
A…..Right.
Q…..Sex toys? Any of those in the house. Vibrators, things like that? Is there a chance that—I mean—
A…..We had one, but it was never used.
Q….Okay. He never used it or anything like that?
A…..(The witness nodded her head.)
Q…..Okay. What about anal sex? Was Mike into anything like that—
A…..(The witness shook her head.)
Q…..—that you know of?
A…..Not to me.
Q…..Okay. Has he said anything about that with anybody in the past, girlfriends or relationships or anything?
A….Uh-huh.
Q…..What did he tell you?
A…..He just said he had.
Q…..Okay. With—
A…..Previous—
Q…..Are you talking about one of the wives or one of the previous girls? Did he say who he was with?
A…..Because I didn’t really care to hear about that crap? But, like, he had mentioned it to me.
Q…..Mentioning what, that he wanted to?
A….Right.
Q,,,,,And you told him no?
A…..Right.
Q….Okay.
A…..This is really—
Q…..I’m sorry. But with the injury that your daughter’s got, I mean, I think that it might be—since we’re trying to get so much history here, the fact that, you know, that might be something that maybe he’s into. I don’t know. I mean, it’s kind of new to me, but that is an injury that your daughter’s got. So if he told you that he wanted to do that with you and then other people it might be important to know who those people were so I can ask them.
A…..Right.
Q…..You don’t know who it would have been?
A…..The only thing I can think of is it might have been his ex-girlfriend.
Q…..Who would that be?
A…..That would have been Alisha Bruce?
Q…..But that’s Bubby’s—
A…..Mom.
Q…..—mom.
A…..Right.
Q…..Michael Gage’s mom.
A…..But, I mean, I didn’t really ask a lot of questions about that.
Q…..You know, it that’s what happened to your daughter—I mean, I’m 41. I do not know and I bet Steve doesn’t know why would somebody even think about doing something like that. I mean, it just beats me to death. I don’t know. And I don’t know if anybody would know, if you could be married to somebody and know if they are capable of that or not. I don’t know, unless you witnessed it. But we do have physical evidence, you know, that Kelsey is telling us that there’s a tear there and, you know, there’s bruising around the anus, her anus. And, you know, it’s pretty—it’s pretty sick, you know, me personally thinking. But you know about everything I know as far as what the ME’s office is going to tell us and what they’re saying.
A…..So this tear, supposedly, that’s on the inside, how old is this?
Q….It’s fresh. It’s a separate incident. It’s a separate injury.
A…..Okay.
Q…..So whatever happened to her stomach didn’t cause that. You’ve got two different things, two different injuries, and they’re both recent.
A…..Like that day?
Q…..Yeah. You know, and just looking at the pictures it looks like—you can just be an old cop and go in there and look at stuff like that and you can tell something that’s a recent injury just by the way it looks, the blood look, you know. It looks recent.
A…..Was there any blood in her Pull-Up?
Q…..I don’t know.
A…..Because, I mean, I want and I looked that house over up and down, and it seemed like there might have been a couple of blood spots by the bed. And I asked Mom, I said, “Was she bleeding somewhere?” And so that’s when Mom was like, you know, “We need to know.”
Q…..Did you—I mean, if that’s kind of what might have happened, other than that one—I mean, if it was like a vibrator, you only have the one vibrator there at the house? Did he know where it was at?
A…Well, see, because we got it from Shawnee. I wanted to throw it away.
Q…..Was it his idea to get it?
A…..Uh-huh. And that was a long time ago.
Q……Okay. Like when you first started dating him?
A…..No, it was maybe a little further than that. Because I had found it somewhere—we were cleaning out the house—and, anyway, I chunked it in the dump.
Q…..So you think you threw it away?
A…..I just did here recently.
Q…..When’s recent? Since your daughter died?
A…..Yeah, I mean, I know where it is.
Q…..Where do you think you found it out? Where was it in the bedroom?
A…..That’s what I’m trying to think.
Q…..Was it in the bedroom, Was it in the master bedroom?
A…..Where did he put it? Because we still had boxes, so I don’t know if it was in a box and I just took it and threw it in the back when we were cleaning the house out.
Q…..So you’re thinking it might have been in a box when you ere moving from the house in Chandler Street in Shawnee to the house—
A…..I’ll have to ask my sister where we found it at.
Q…..Okay. So that might not have been something. I’m just trying to figure out, you know, if that is the case I mean, there’s other things that could cause that, but there’s always the potential that, you know, that might—would be the instrumentation.
A…..Okay. So if I—that day whenever she pooped in the toilet, wouldn’t that have hurt if I wiped that have hurt if I wiped her if it was—
Q…..You might have noticed some blood, maybe, but this is inside. It’s not around the rectum. It’s inside the rectum, is where the tear is. It’s not necessarily on the outside. Do you follow what I am saying?
A…..Okay.
Q…..So if you were to wipe her—
A…..I mean, I was just wondering if she—
Q….—I don’t know if you would have gotten anything off at that point. But here’s the thing: If you didn’t get any blood, then you could probably make the assumption it happened sometimes later.
A…..Because that’s what I wanted to know.
Q…..It’s probably going to happen around the same duration and time as the stomach problem, you know, so it kind of makes you think, you know, that if you didn’t do anything like that and—did you ever witness Kelsey do anything like that? Did she ever—
A…..No.
Q…..I wouldn’t think so, but sometimes we have to ask questions that we need answers for. So you’ve never seen her put anything in her butt or anything like that? Nothing like that’s ever happened.
A…..No.
Q…..So then that leaves the answer that that must have occurred, you know, sometimes after you went to the school to pick up Whitney. I mean, as an investigator, that’s what I have to believe.
A…..Well, I’m not an investigator, and that’s what it looks like to me, and he’s just—he’s sorry.
Q…..You know.
A…..I don’t what we’re wasting our money on him for.
Q…..Well, I mean, we still have to, you know, do the investigation stuff, and there’s some other things to do. Anything else you can think of that you want to ask me or you can tell me anything Kelsey that can bring me some more light on anything we might have done? It’s been a long day, another one.
This concludes the interview. A small amount of conversation continued with Mr. Huddleston, Kevin Garrett, and Raye Dawn as they left the room.
{Note: Obtained from http://kelseyspurpose.org/}
